Trying to isolate with KJ against fish goes wrong

Lunkan · #1 08-04-2006, 03:56 PM

UTG+1 is a fish. Plays more than half of is hands and never raises. CO is semi-loose aggressive.

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10.5SB, 3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8.25BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: 8.25BB

kerowo · #2 08-04-2006, 04:00 PM

Your hand got better on the turn, why not bet it? Or where you trying for a c/r? What was your plan if villain raises the river?

Xhad · #3 08-04-2006, 04:17 PM

Actually if we have the best hand on the turn, it's going to be hard for Villain to call. The only way he can be drawing reasonably live is if he has the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (which would give him flush outs + overcard outs).

I don't expect Villain to raise the river ever really; if he does I think it's a tough fold.

So I like the hand.

EDIT: D'oh, forgot about the straight draw. That makes his situation a little better if he has a non-heart AK but I still think a c/c is better.

Ricks · #4 08-04-2006, 05:34 PM

To make a turn bet, Hero would have to believe that he is ahead in this hand a good percentage of the time. Betting when behind would not be good and if he gets raised it would be even worse. We would have, at most, about a 30% chance to improve.

Buckmulligan · #5 08-04-2006, 05:36 PM

I don't mind trying a checkraise on the flop if UTG calls, but without the overlay, I'm turning that check/raise into a check/call once it's heads up. Just call down.

freedom18 · #6 08-04-2006, 05:45 PM

fold this PF unless you have reads on the further end of the table KJo in EP is pretty marginal =[

Xhad · #7 08-04-2006, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
fold this PF unless you have reads on the further end of the table KJo in EP is pretty marginal =[

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate KJo, but I never fold here without reads.

Ricks · #8 08-04-2006, 06:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
fold this PF unless you have reads on the further end of the table KJo in EP is pretty marginal =[

[/ QUOTE ]

You bring up a good point. Before taking any action pre-flop, you should be aware of the opponents who are most likely to be in the hand with you. Those opponents are usually the blinds, the BB being the most likely. I don't think that I would try to isolate here with KJo if I didn't think that the BB was tight enough to fold. Also, if I thought that anyone would cc, I would be less inclined to isolate with KJo from MP1.

kerowo · #9 08-04-2006, 06:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To make a turn bet, Hero would have to believe that he is ahead in this hand a good percentage of the time. Betting when behind would not be good and if he gets raised it would be even worse. We would have, at most, about a 30% chance to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can get villain to fold here to the potential flush 1 time in 9 you are making money betting this turn. If you get raised you are getting 11:1 to call to hit your flush, trips, or two pair. Against a semi-loose aggro villain I wouldn't be surprised to be ahead here most of the time and I certainly think we are still drawing live enough to warrent taking a shot. If we get raised c/c the river ui and get a better read on this guy.

Ricks · #10 08-04-2006, 08:10 PM

kerowo,

[ QUOTE ]
If you can get villain to fold here to the potential flush 1 time in 9 you are making money betting this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

If villain has a better hand than JJ, I do not think a SLAG will fold nearly often enough.

[ QUOTE ]
If you get raised you are getting 11:1 to call to hit your flush, trips, or two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we are behind to kings, two pair will not help and even though we still have a lot of outs, we just put in two BBs with about 30% equity.

[ QUOTE ]
Against a semi-loose aggro villain I wouldn't be surprised to be ahead here most of the time and I certainly think we are still drawing live enough to warrent taking a shot. If we get raised c/c the river ui and get a better read on this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my original point. How often we think we are ahead is what should determine whether we make the turn bet or not.