100/200 Bellagio Floor Decision

bicyclekick · #1 08-04-2006, 02:12 PM

I was involved in a situation at the bellagio yesterday and I'm curious about what the decision should be.

Player B sits down and gives money to the chip runner to get chips and has nothing in front of him. Player A is the small blind and when it's folded to him, he raises. Player B says call. The flop comes out, player A bets, player B says call. The turn comes out, player A bets, player B says raise, player A calls. The river comes and player A checks, player B says bet, player A thinks player B says check so he throws his cards face up towards the dealer. The dealer knows player B said bet and thinks player A is folding face up and mucks player A's hand on top of the muck pile and since he tabled it everyone knows what he had and the cards are on top. Player A asks the dealer why he mucked his hand and he wanted to call player B's bet. The floor is called.

surfdoc · #2 08-04-2006, 02:26 PM

Kinda hard to believe that player A heard all the streets but then didn't hear the river. If he tables face up but there is no bet accompanying his cards I think that is a fold but the dealer seems to have botched this a bit not clarifying.

Rick Nebiolo · #3 08-05-2006, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Kinda hard to believe that player A heard all the streets but then didn't hear the river. If he tables face up but there is no bet accompanying his cards I think that is a fold but the dealer seems to have botched this a bit not clarifying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd tend to award the pot to player A since it was tabled but if anyone botched this up it is Player A, not the dealer. Player A could have down a better job protecting his hand, borrowed chips to play the hand, made his actions 100% clear if he went to verbal action, and asked for clarification if he didn't understand the other player's action on the river.

Agree it is strange that he could hear all other streets but not the river.

Regarding verbal action, I almost never say the word bet in a limit game. Sounds too much like "check". Let your chips speak.

~ Rick

surfdoc · #4 08-06-2006, 12:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Kinda hard to believe that player A heard all the streets but then didn't hear the river. If he tables face up but there is no bet accompanying his cards I think that is a fold but the dealer seems to have botched this a bit not clarifying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd tend to award the pot to player A since it was tabled but if anyone botched this up it is Player A, not the dealer. Player A could have down a better job protecting his hand, borrowed chips to play the hand, made his actions 100% clear if he went to verbal action, and asked for clarification if he didn't understand the other player's action on the river.

Agree it is strange that he could hear all other streets but not the river.

Regarding verbal action, I almost never say the word bet in a limit game. Sounds too much like "check". Let your chips speak.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

Rick,

Player A is the one who actually had chips.

goofball · #5 08-06-2006, 03:48 AM

If player A had simply turned his hand face up in front of him this whole mess could have been avoided.

The muck does not have magic powers. We know what A's hand is, it's live, and it's $200 to him.

Rick Nebiolo · #6 08-06-2006, 05:39 AM

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Player A is the one who actually had chips.

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Sorry about that. I did a rewrite under Deathdonkey above for that previous reply. Too tired to do another one for the above but would like to emphasize that if Player A was facing a clear bet (obviously he is being given the benefit of the doubt that he didn't hear the bet from Player B (Player B having made a verbal bet), his hand would definitely be dead as explained in my other rewrite.

One more point. Had Player A's apparent fold "caused action behind " (e.g., Player B perhaps revealing a busted river bluff bet) then a good floor should rule that Player A's hand is dead.

~ Rick

youtalkfunny · #7 08-06-2006, 06:42 AM

One other facter that OP didn't mention, so I have no idea if it applies to this particular hand--I just have the funny feeling that it does.

I'm talking about people who feel the need to use their hands when they're betting without chips. They point to the spot on the table where they would place their chips, if they had any, and announce, "Bet!"

The trouble with this is, bringing your index finger down to point to a spot on the table looks like a check, and the word "bet" sounds like a check.

Again, this may or may not have even happened here. But I feel it should be considered.

luckychewy · #8 08-04-2006, 02:27 PM

kinda sucks no one made a noticeable mistake but i think A should be able to call and best hand wins. it's not like he gained any extra informtaion from thinking B checked and exposing his cards unless he got a reaction or something which would most likely be unintentional anyways. are either of these players unethical or angle shooters?

Schneids · #9 08-04-2006, 02:28 PM

At the Bellagio if the cards are undeniably retrievable from the muck, then they can be. I'm guessing the floor allows him to call the bet since his hand is known and therefore easily retrievable.

DeathDonkey · #10 08-04-2006, 04:13 PM

I'd be VERY surprised if player A is allowed to call here. A bet was made and he tossed his cards towards the muck making no effort to call the bet. It's a clear fold. If he is allowed to call here it could be used at any time as a huge angle shot.

-DeathDonkey