2-7 TD, Calling Pre-Flop

[F8thless]

Here's another one I don't understand, but I see even good players do it all the time:

Calling a single raise pre-flop, in position, even on the button. In SS2, DN says that it's generally better to raise or fold pre-flop, and if your hand isn't worth 3-betting, it's probably worth folding. Personally, I never smooth call out of the big blind, unless I have a wheel. My reasoning is that I want to get it heads up with position, and I want the blinds out. On the button you have position, but it is always preferable to be heads up as well.

I would assume that people would re-raise with 234 or 237, so does that mean their calling with hands like 256 or 267, in which case maybe they should be folding? If they are calling with weak hands, is it +EV, and if it is, are you giving away too much information? Even with a bad draw, would you be better off re-raising?

A related point: In hold'em, I think it's generally considered best to re-raise from the small blind against a possible steal, if you are going to play, to try to get the big blind out. In TD, should you still re-raise with good 2 card draw, even OOP, should you call with weak 2 card draws or just fold, and should you call with good 3 card draws from the small, or just fold?

I see good players call in position and from the small blind, so I'm just wondering if this is a good idea, and if so, what hands to do it with.

[MarkGritter]

I will maybe write a longer reply later... but reraising from the SB is not necessarily something you want to get into the habit of doing automatically.

In the SB, position works against you rather than for you. You'd rather put less money in. A hand like 732 is probably worth playing but you might not want to reraise.

This has to be balanced against the disadvantages of playing OOP 3-handed instead of 2-handed. So your decision needs to be influenced by the character of the BB. If he is tight enough that he will not enter without a quality starter, you can probably just call. If he is going to play anything remotely playable even for two bets, the extra bet just bloats the pot.

A hand like 732 might actually welcome another player in the pot if it hits a 4, 5, or 6--- and you might want to fold a small pot if the original raiser shows strength. A hand like 8742 probably doesn't want the third player around, and reraising it will disguise your hand strength, and force BB to better define his hand (so you can decide to dump the 8.)

[F8thless]

I think what you wrote are great points that I will def. consider when playing and I would love to hear more if you have the time for a longer post.

Would you re-raise from the small with 234 or any others strictly for value, say you suspected the button had a very rough hand or a 3 card draw and was stealing, even if you thought the big might fold on his own?

Would you ever call and draw 3 out of the small with something like 23 or 27, especially if you were playing 3 or 4 handed?

Dustin, also great points.

[AlanBostick]

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In the SB, position works against you rather than for you. You'd rather put less money in. A hand like 732 is probably worth playing but you might not want to reraise.

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Given that your position is teh sux0r in the small blind, which would you rather do with a decent hand: play it out of position heads-up, or play it out of position with two horses to outrun rather than just one?

I know some of you pooh-pooh stealing with 3-card draws on the button; but if you are up against an opponent who does this often, isn't it the case that the reraise with a hand like 732 can be seen as raising for value? You can often resteal after the first draw if the attacker doesn't improve.

[MarkGritter]

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In the SB, position works against you rather than for you. You'd rather put less money in. A hand like 732 is probably worth playing but you might not want to reraise.

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Given that your position is teh sux0r in the small blind, which would you rather do with a decent hand: play it out of position heads-up, or play it out of position with two horses to outrun rather than just one?

I know some of you pooh-pooh stealing with 3-card draws on the button; but if you are up against an opponent who does this often, isn't it the case that the reraise with a hand like 732 can be seen as raising for value? You can often resteal after the first draw if the attacker doesn't improve.

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You make a good point--- dealing with just one player OOP is in some ways easier than playing two. But I think with a seven draw you will often have a decent sense of where you stand even in a multiway pot. The button is less likely to get cute and try to drive you off a hand or stand pat very rough. Maybe you really are better off playing this three-handed OOP instead of two-handed OOP, in answer to TT's question. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Is the BB going to have a hand with which he will call one bet, but not two, often enough that the reraise has value? You are almost certainly losing money if BB's hand is equal or better than yours. You are only saving money if you cause him to fold a hand you don't want to compete with. Again, we don't really know whether having 72xxx in the pot helps or hurts 732xx or 7432x. (My guess is overall it hurts but I could easily see it going the other way.)

3-betting as a defense against a steal is pretty standard, but I would be somewhat cautious as this can commit you to seeing the second draw. It is also less likely to make a resteal work.

On the other hand, you will often get capped by the legitimate hands so reopening the betting has its own risks.

Are you suggesting an autobet against a button who draws three, even if you don't improve? I have mixed feelings about this play and I actually think this is not a horrible place to give a free card. The three-card draw is quite likely to improve by at least one card. But, since there are already 5 SB (or 7SB) in the pot, a bet may show some profit... the problem is when you get raised.

[*TT*]

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3-betting as a defense against a steal is pretty standard, but I would be somewhat cautious as this can commit you to seeing the second draw. It is also less likely to make a resteal work.

On the other hand, you will often get capped by the legitimate hands so reopening the betting has its own risks.

Are you suggesting an autobet against a button who draws three, even if you don't improve? I have mixed feelings about this play and I actually think this is not a horrible place to give a free card. The three-card draw is quite likely to improve by at least one card. But, since there are already 5 SB (or 7SB) in the pot, a bet may show some profit... the problem is when you get raised.

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We must also consider that the average player who steals on the button with 2 cards usually does so with 2 reasonable cards without a 6, so the range is limited to 27xxx, 23xx, 24xxx, 25xxx, 37xxx, 35xxx for the most part. If the action goes button raise, SB 3-bet, BB fold, button call thats 7 big bets in the pot after the first draw, and then assuming the SB bets its now 8 big bets.

Are you ready for something shocking? The button would be correct to call if he does not improve provided he has a clean draw in a HU pot. You are laying him 8:1, he better call if he likes money! The standard TAG 3-bet from the SB defense does not work as we all thought it did, it is spewing chips unnecessarily. In most games I have witnessed the TAG would have been better off calling in the SB because a three bet won't shut out the BB from most draws anyway(with the exception of 3 card draws containing a duce).

to wrap this up lets compare all the scenarios:

SB 3-bets & BB folds: Laying 8:1 to the button on the second draw - Button is correct to call the bet
SB 3-bets & BB calls: Laying at least 10:1 or more to the button on the second draw - Button is correct to call the bet
SB calls & BB folds: Laying 5:1 to the button on the second draw (assuming the SB bets round 2)- Button is not getting the odds to correctly call a bet
SB calls & BB calls: Laying at least 6:1 - )- Button is not getting the odds to correctly call a bet

Lets all say my mantra now..... pot size manipulation. Some day I will learn to practice what I preach (I admit I don't always do that when playing online because TD makes me steam a little bit still, I do however when I am playing live).

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[*TT*]

I would like to add something obvious but I should have said earlier in my prior post. 3-betting against a button steal is a value bet, even though you are giving your opponent on the button the odds to continue, but all value bets are not created equal - this isn't the same as capping on the button with AA in a multi-way pot in Holdem as an example.

As our resident theory expert Mark Gritter pointed out the hero needs to improve just like the villain does in the scenario I provided above or he can lose the pot, regardless of the equity the hero has even a hand such as KQJT2 beats 23455 in triple draw on the final round. Conversely there is greater inherent value in 3-betting A23 rainbow in Badugi than there is 3-betting 237xx in triple draw in the same scenario purely because A23x is a showdown hand where as 237xx is not.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[MarkGritter]

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Are you ready for something shocking? The button would be correct to call if he does not improve provided he has a clean draw in a HU pot. You are laying him 8:1, he better call if he likes money! The standard TAG 3-bet from the SB defense does not work as we all thought it did, it is spewing chips unnecessarily. In most games I have witnessed the TAG would have been better off calling in the SB because a three bet won't shut out the BB from most draws anyway(with the exception of 3 card draws containing a duce).


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TT,

That's sort of the point of the 3-bet (as you know from reading Sklansky on Razz.) Yes, your opponent is committed to two draws. But he also can't stand pat and scare you off on the next round because you are committed as well.

So, as usual, it comes down to playing the player. One should probably be 3-betting a tricky opponent so that a snow or semisnow isn't profitable, but merely calling a more straightforward opponent, particularly one who will call too much.

Tapirboy has suggested, in conversations in the past, that he makes the most money by convincing people to fold incorrectly, which makes perfect sense from a FTOP perspective---- if you have good control over an opponent then the bigger pot makes these folds even worse, and you might want to 3-bet. My opinion is that players who fold too much are too rare to plan around.

Mark

[DustinG]

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Calling a single raise pre-flop, in position, even on the button. In SS2, DN says that it's generally better to raise or fold pre-flop, and if your hand isn't worth 3-betting, it's probably worth folding.


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This is where I dont always agree with Negreanu. If I cold call a raise on the button with 237 and the blinds get involved too, if someone could show me how I'm losing money there I'd be surprised. Though it certainly may increase variance to allow pots to get multiway, I think getting involved in muliway pots with premium draws is only going to add +ev. I'm most inclined to 3 bet when not on the button. Or if the raiser plays badly. If the blinds play badly and I'm on the button why not let them in??

DN also says that "that there are four other two-card draws starting hands that should be played in most situations. They are the draws that contains a 6 that could still make you a 7-low." p476

So that means if a loose players raises we are supposed to 3 bet 256??? Ugh. If I am on the button and a loose/bad player raises I may call with 236. But that is as much as I'm opening up.

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Personally, I never smooth call out of the big blind, unless I have a wheel.

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Its rarely correct to slowplay a wheel ever imo. You are giving your hand away to good players. If someone limps or limp reraises and is pat I run and hide.


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I would assume that people would re-raise with 234 or 237, so does that mean their calling with hands like 256 or 267, in which case maybe they should be folding? If they are calling with weak hands, is it +EV, and if it is, are you giving away too much information? Even with a bad draw, would you be better off re-raising?


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Since the roughest I'll be If I cold-call a raise is 267, if they want to think I'm rough when I'm not thats fine.

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In TD, should you still re-raise with good 2 card draw, even OOP, should you call with weak 2 card draws or just fold, and should you call with good 3 card draws from the small, or just fold?


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You have to call a single raise from the big blind even with a hand as rough as 256. But you shouldn't reraise a two card draw oop unless you are playing HU imo. TD is a highly positional game and I dont want to swell pots with a 2 card draw oop. If the pot is muliway I think you can fold 268. What to do with other 8 draws I dont know?? I call a single raise w/ 238, 248, 258. If anyone folds here in a multiway pot let me know.

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I see good players call in position and from the small blind, so I'm just wondering if this is a good idea, and if so, what hands to do it with.

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If I am calling a raise outside of the big blind, then I can almost guarantee you that I have either 234, 235, 245, 237, 247, 257, or 267.

[F8thless]

I agree that smooth calling with a wheel gives your hand away against good players, but I am always suprised how people will draw against it and even call the river. It's also a chance I'm willing to take rather than to only get the blinds, as to me, it's seems higher EV to try to get as many people in as possible when you can't lose, than to risk only getting the blinds with a sure thing.

About the raise or fold thing. I def. think you want to raise or fold anytime not on the button. I am starting to come around on the idea of calling on the button as well, and I agree with what you are saying about SS2. You will def. have more variance, but also probably higher EV. The one reason to be HU, is that if the game were tight/aggressive, which I would guess the games he plays in usually are, If you re-raise, the BB is making a mistake by drawing 3, and he generally needs a real hand for 2 bets OOP, but if you just call and he's getting 5.5-1, that's enough for 23, 24, 25, or 27. Then if he bets the flop and the MP player raises as he should with any 1 card draw, you will be making a mistake if you call and have to draw 2. So I'm guessing that's his reasoning for re-raising on the button. You're also getting more money in with position with a good hand, which isn't a bad thing.

Would you agree with the idea of re-raising good 2 card draws in an aggressive game?

Very good points though.