More you be the floor

SumZero · #1 07-28-2006, 04:36 PM

NLHE tournament situation (technically spread limit, but whatever). The blinds have just recently (2 hands ago) been raised from 25-50 to 50-100.

Player in LP has a chip on his cards and action is on him as he is counting out a raise (but hasn't said anything yet). CO puts 2 25 chips into the pot (across the betting line) obviously thinking action is on him and that it is a limp. CO hasn't said anything. Dealer says action is on LP player. LP player raises to 300. CO looks confused. Dealer says he can fold and take back his 50 chips (no action behind him). CO does this (folds and takes back his chips). Dealer washes CO's hand into the muck. Button and blinds fold but button and SB say to the dealer that the chips have to stand in a tournament because they crossed the line and they've been busted on that before. The dealer calls the floor. The floor gets all this informtation and rules...

Blizzardbaum · #2 07-28-2006, 04:46 PM

redeal?

Dan. · #3 07-28-2006, 04:55 PM

Chips stay in the pot. But CO may fold, call, or raise.

cardcounter0 · #4 07-28-2006, 05:02 PM

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But CO may fold, call, or raise.

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Since CO no longer has any cards, my guess is he will fold.
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Dan. · #5 07-28-2006, 06:50 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
But CO may fold, call, or raise.

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Since CO no longer has any cards, my guess is he will fold.
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I of course meant before he mucked.

SumZero · #6 07-28-2006, 06:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
NLHE tournament situation (technically spread limit, but whatever). The blinds have just recently (2 hands ago) been raised from 25-50 to 50-100.

Player in LP has a chip on his cards and action is on him as he is counting out a raise (but hasn't said anything yet). CO puts 2 25 chips into the pot (across the betting line) obviously thinking action is on him and that it is a limp. CO hasn't said anything. Dealer says action is on LP player. LP player raises to 300. CO looks confused. Dealer says he can fold and take back his 50 chips (no action behind him). CO does this (folds and takes back his chips). Dealer washes CO's hand into the muck. Button and blinds fold but button and SB say to the dealer that the chips have to stand in a tournament because they crossed the line and they've been busted on that before. The dealer calls the floor. The floor gets all this informtation and rules...

[/ QUOTE ]

Floor ruled that not only the 50 in chips that the CO put in the pot but 100 in chips needed to be put in because the player was attempting to call the BB. Not the 300 that would have been a call of my (the LP in the story) raise, and not the 50 in chips that I was expecting would be the ruling, but 100 in chips.

CO had a big stack and didn't seem to care too much.

Chipr777 · #7 07-28-2006, 07:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Floor ruled that not only the 50 in chips that the CO put in the pot but 100 in chips needed to be put in because the player was attempting to call the BB. Not the 300 that would have been a call of my (the LP in the story) raise, and not the 50 in chips that I was expecting would be the ruling, but 100 in chips.

[/ QUOTE ] Correct ruling.

SumZero · #8 07-28-2006, 07:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Floor ruled that not only the 50 in chips that the CO put in the pot but 100 in chips needed to be put in because the player was attempting to call the BB. Not the 300 that would have been a call of my (the LP in the story) raise, and not the 50 in chips that I was expecting would be the ruling, but 100 in chips.

[/ QUOTE ] Correct ruling.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is the reasoning that a 50 call is less than the minimum bet but a 100 chip would be the minimum limp. I.e., the guy was limping out of turn and then the bet arrived at him? Would it have mattered if someone else in EP had raised before he put the 50 chips out (again if he put them out while LP was thinking/getting ready to raise)?

RR · #9 07-28-2006, 11:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Floor ruled that not only the 50 in chips that the CO put in the pot but 100 in chips needed to be put in because the player was attempting to call the BB. Not the 300 that would have been a call of my (the LP in the story) raise, and not the 50 in chips that I was expecting would be the ruling, but 100 in chips.

[/ QUOTE ] Correct ruling.

[/ QUOTE ]

This ruling is wrong for a number of reasons.

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An action or verbal declaration out of turn may be ruled binding if there is no bet , call, or raise by an intervening player acting after the infraction has been committed.

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There was an intervening call so his action out of turn is not binding.

[ QUOTE ]
Dealer washes CO's hand into the muck. Button and blinds fold but button and SB say to the dealer that the chips have to stand in a tournament because they crossed the line and they've been busted on that before. The dealer calls the floor. The floor gets all this informtation and rules...

[/ QUOTE ]

The button and blind both fold before asking for a ruling. If you want a ruling you DO NOT act on your hand, you ask for a ruling. Once players have acted on his money not being in the pot you CAN NOT go back and put additional money in the pot.

It is a long standing principle that if a player is unaware of a raise and is then made aware of the raise they are allowed to withdraw their call and act based on knowing the size of the bet.

SumZero · #10 07-28-2006, 05:09 PM

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redeal?

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Ha!

Actually last night at a work tournament there was a hand where the action went limp, all fold to sb who limped, BB checked. Dealer (who was button player) cleaned up the folded cards and in that process grabbed the sb's hand which was infront of his stack, unprotected, and mostly over the betting line. The table realized what had happened before the flop came out. The TD (who was playing on the other table) was called and ruled it a complete redeal of the hand.