A2s: Donks ahoy!

waffle · #1 07-20-2006, 04:11 AM

PFR is 34/11/1.4. Others unknown.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets,

True · #2 07-20-2006, 04:19 AM

I think I would often check/fold this spot however the only real draw out there is the heart flush draw. This is quite a threatening board to most players, the only problem that I see is your pair is very low which means that if you get called down by an "any pair will do" fish then they could have any pocket pair possible. I think if you have a hand like 77 it may better, just because it beats 66 55 44 33.

True

sharpie · #3 07-20-2006, 04:21 AM

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I think I would often check/fold this spot

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If it comes back for 1 bet I think we should be calling.

Poliorcetes · #4 07-20-2006, 04:42 AM

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If it comes back for 1 bet I think we should be calling.

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If it comes back for 1 bet I think we should be folding. Two ways to look at it - first, we would be getting 11-1 on a 5-outer but with horrible reverse implied odds vs AK, second we've got only 3 to 3.5 outs getting 11-1 which isn't really enough in a spot like this.

I'd really like to know what the OP's thinking was with the donk, I just can't see it here.

True · #5 07-20-2006, 04:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it comes back for 1 bet I think we should be calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it comes back for 1 bet I think we should be folding. Two ways to look at it - first, we would be getting 11-1 on a 5-outer but with horrible reverse implied odds vs AK, second we've got only 3 to 3.5 outs getting 11-1 which isn't really enough in a spot like this.

I'd really like to know what the OP's thinking was with the donk, I just can't see it here.

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definitely check/call in this spot, your reverse implied odds are only against A8 / KK / AK and AA, if he has AQ/AJ/AT/KQ/KJ/KT your implied odds are good.

True

waffle · #6 07-20-2006, 04:56 AM

I wanted to continue past the flop. My old default play is to C/R if HU and C/C if multiway. I've been reading Byron Jacob's book and he recommends a lot of donks where I would usually c/r. Unfortunately I don't really have a lot of justifcation for it other than "put them on A high and donk".

Poliorcetes · #7 07-20-2006, 05:21 AM

True, true.

But - and I get a bit fuzzy here - shouldn't we either be discounting our Ace outs for the [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] giving us very slim drawing odds, OR looking at our reverse implied odds where it will cost us an extra BB or two compared to our implied odds?

sharpie · #8 07-20-2006, 04:20 AM

I would check and see. I think villain raises when you're behind and calls when you're ahead, and he'll also autobet alot. I don't see the others being more apt to fold because you bet instead of the PFRer, so I can't really see a reason to donk.

P Chippa · #9 07-20-2006, 10:55 AM

Donking into a PFR and a PF cold caller OOP seems wrong. A couple things not brought up yet:

1) SB could be drooling in wait for that C/R with his KQ

2) The donk doesn't seem as bad if the thinking is along the lines of this - The PFR is hyper-agressive and will auto raise any bet in front of him which will fold the other players, leaving me with a good chance of being in the lead. This is a stretch IMO though.