3 bet bluff TPTK?

Ian J · #1 07-17-2006, 05:03 AM

A very interesting scenario came up the other night in a 5 handed 200/400 game at the Bellagio where I debated 3 bet bluffing the river with TPTK.

For those around, this hand is against Van. He is very good IMO, that's really the best way to explain it. He's probably not as tricky as some of the players in the game, but surely has some moves. Anyway, on to the hand. Feel free to comment on all streets.

Van opens UTG and I 3 bet AQo in the SB, a tightish BB calls and now Van 4 bets it. I think his range here is TT+ and AK weighted towards the bigger hands because he will sometimes call even QQ in this spot. Me and BB call.

Flop is Q65 with 2 spades I have none. Checks to Van who bets, I raise, BB folds, Van calls.

Turn pairs the 6 and for some reason I decide to check again. Van bets and I raise again, he calls again. Right now I'm thinking his hand is JJ, KK, AA, or AKss.

The river is the 9c and I bet out and now Van raises me. I'm fairly lost at this point and end up calling the raise. I'm wondering if, against a good player, is it completely insane to 3 bet bluff TPTK here? I mean his play sure looks like he's raising KK/AA on the river and planning to fold to a 3 bet, although he could call, I'm not sure. This could be crazy, but it occured to me the other night and I thought I'd bounce it off you guys.

DcifrThs · #2 07-17-2006, 10:10 AM

it might be better than calling b/c you m ay now win the pot often enough to have a non negative expectation w/ that 3 bet than you do giving up almost an entire bet with the call. if you think it has a non negative expectation there (he folds >~6.5% of the time) then it's > than folding as well. given the way you played the hand though i think he'd be far more likelyt o look you up than your normal "raise the river fold to a 3 bet" kinda spot.

Barron

Kayber2 · #3 07-17-2006, 02:24 PM

This is an interesting hand. I played with Van and he's definitely capable of making big folds. If you had bet, 3 bet the turn on a bluff (assuming that he raises the turn) I think he's capable of folding AA/KK.

I'm of course assuming that Ian you have your normal tight "i'm usually not getting out of line" image and not my "loose asian guy" image.

If you do have that image I think the bet/3 bet bluff on the river would work against this particular player. It's better than calling since I'd bet my bankroll he's got you beat here.

Worth the extra bet to try and win the pot IMHO.

Paluka · #4 07-17-2006, 10:14 AM

I agree that it looks like he is raising with AA/KK, but in my experience people don't do this planning on folding to a 3 bet.

DcifrThs · #5 07-17-2006, 10:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that it looks like he is raising with AA/KK, but in my experience people don't do this planning on folding to a 3 bet. getting 17:1

[/ QUOTE ]

ALL1N · #6 07-17-2006, 12:11 PM

Is this the aussie Van?

Btw, turn CR is real bad, IMO. River may be worth giving a shot, don't hate.

Ian J · #7 07-17-2006, 01:26 PM

No he's not an Aussie. He's Asian and from Toronto. Can you expand on why you think the turn c/r is bad? Presumably because it lets him off of worse hands and he stays around with better?

Paluka · #8 07-17-2006, 01:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No he's not an Aussie. He's Asian and from Toronto. Can you expand on why you think the turn c/r is bad? Presumably because it lets him off of worse hands and he stays around with better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you checkraise the turn becaues it was your plan the whole time, or did you decide to do it after you realized you should not have checked?

Ian J · #9 07-17-2006, 02:01 PM

I decided after he called on the flop that I was going to check the turn unless a spade came. I did this because Van and I have been playing a lot together the last 2 weeks and I wanted to do something to throw him off of my normal line with this type of hand. I thought it may confuse him into giving me too much money w/ JJ really was my reasoning in addition to the metagame stuff.

Also, when I bet this turn Van can certainly have his way with me by raising and then putting me in the tough spot of not knowing whether he's now freeshowdowning (new word? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) JJ/TT or raising for value w/ KK/AA etc.

Paluka · #10 07-17-2006, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I decided after he called on the flop that I was going to check the turn unless a spade came. I did this because Van and I have been playing a lot together the last 2 weeks and I wanted to do something to throw him off of my normal line with this type of hand. I thought it may confuse him into giving me too much money w/ JJ really was my reasoning in addition to the metagame stuff.

Also, when I bet this turn Van can certainly have his way with me by raising and then putting me in the tough spot of not knowing whether he's now freeshowdowning (new word? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) JJ/TT or raising for value w/ KK/AA etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything you said, which is actually why I think checkign the turn is a good play. I just don't like following it up with a raise. What's wrong with check/call?