25/50 deepstack (most interesting hand in a while!)

[theBruiser500]

4 tabling 25/50 on stars, playing LAG on them but have good hands in the big pots for the most part. I have $23,000 and Bet2win has $16,000. In the last few minutes I have raised a lot of hands so I expected a reraise. I bet $200 and B2Win reraises to $800, he is a tough opponent.

I call, i was going to reraise if i had a decent hand but 99 seems like an okay one to just call with. So that's decision one. Flop is Qh Qs Th, I check he checks. Don't see a point in choosing different action here.

Turn is 7c, I bet $1200, he minraises to $2400, I raise to $4800, he calls.

River pot is $11,000, he has $11,000 left. What ar eyour thoughts? River card is Jo, what are your thoughts now?

[ahnuld]

I think it was a trap on the flop and theres a decent chance he flopped full.He also might have AA KK JJ and checked the flop fairly standardly. Now what do you think hell do if we push if he has AA or KK? Insta fold?

[cero_z]

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I think it was a trap on the flop and theres a decent chance he flopped full.

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Pretty unlikely line (ck behind, minraise turn) for boat at this limit/these skilled players. It's more of a pot-control play generally. Could be an overpair, as you noted, but I'd say a T or JJ, 88, 66, AK are more likely.

Bruiser, I vote shut it down. The Jack makes more hands that you don't beat and won't fold, and it seems like you were already possibly against a T. Now, a T will fold, possibly, but maybe not. Obv all-in or ck, I vote ck and fold to most anything. The fact that you posted and think it's an interesting hand, though, makes me wonder if you won it somehow.

[aceswild83]

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Pretty unlikely line (ck behind, minraise turn) for boat at this limit/these skilled players. It's more of a pot-control play generally.

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I think they will mix up how they play their big hands at this level. If he thinks his opponent expects him to bet a Q on the flop then he probably would check.

I don't get the pot control scenario with AA etc. Wouldn't he just call turn if he wanted to keep the pot small?
Maybe he raised to induce a bluff re-raise [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] expecting his opponent wouldn't give him credit for a Q. Not sure if that makes sense.

[jcmoussa]

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I think it was a trap on the flop and theres a decent chance he flopped full.

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Pretty unlikely line (ck behind, minraise turn) for boat at this limit/these skilled players. It's more of a pot-control play generally. Could be an overpair, as you noted, but I'd say a T or JJ, 88, 66, AK are more likely.

Bruiser, I vote shut it down. The Jack makes more hands that you don't beat and won't fold, and it seems like you were already possibly against a T. Now, a T will fold, possibly, but maybe not. Obv all-in or ck, I vote ck and fold to most anything. The fact that you posted and think it's an interesting hand, though, makes me wonder if you won it somehow.

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cero if you think he has a T isn't the jack a good card to keep betting on?

[cero_z]

Hi jc,

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cero if you think he has a T isn't the jack a good card to keep betting on?

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That's one of the hands I think are fairly likely, and no, I'd say once he calls the raise to 4800, he's prepared to call the rest barring something really bad happening on the board. Or, he has a draw, in which case we'll probably win or tie if he checks.

[fslexcduck]

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I'd say once he calls the raise to 4800, he's prepared to call the rest barring something really bad happening on the board.

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I don't like this line of reasoning at all. If he has a T, i think very often he will call the 2400 planning to fold for the rest of it.

MDMA -- i really don't know if this IS a case of contradictory lines of thought. i mean, he could be playing for pot control and then get reraised and a light goes off like wtf does bruiser have, lets see if he's serious when i make this call. i think this, while being contradictory somewhat, could occur because he never expects the turn reraise, then gets it and changes his mind. he knows that bruiser knows his minraise is pot control/monster usually so why would bruiser reraise his huge hand rather than calling and leading river or something? just a thought...

all that being said, i do not think he has a bare ten here a lot or an overpair, i DO think it is often a monster. people say this line looks like standard pot control, and he would probably bet the flop with a Q... that is ludicrous. you guys have to understand the difference between large and small pots. this pot is already large, there is no need to build the pot by betting the flop. (hey if checking the flop induces turn bluff 3 bets, you've built the pot more effectively by checking). playing the same once pots are this big preflop as when pots are small preflop doesn't make much sense, and it doesn't make sense to assume that a line means something without regards to pot size.

the conclusion of all my rambling is that he COULD have a monster, but he doesn't have to. but we pretty much should be giving up here. the way to solve this ambiguity would have definitely been a bigger raise on the turn, to $6k would probably be a good number. i think raising to 4800 only accomplished folding out his AK or AJ or something, not much else. raising to 6k probably would have gotten him off his nonmonsters, and made it a very simple check/fold on the river (and he usually would have folded turn).

[N 82 50 24]

I think he's just as capable of playing a T like this as he is playing a Q. From what I know about bet2win, he likes to re-raise a lot of deep-stack type hands when he thinks you're getting too aggro -- hands like JT, T9, T8, J9, other suited lower cards (hearts in this case) -- all hands he could very well have here that he would fold to a big bet on the river (or at the very least you'd force him to make a huge call). I think your raise to $4800 looks weak, which would incline him to call with a T. However, he has many stronger hands in his range as well that he wouldn't fold to a big river bet -- most decent Qs (esp the ones that are full), TT, JJ, etc. But still, I think there's decent value in bluffing here because he will fold his T or J and most pocket pairs that didn't make a boat. I'm not sure of his calling range with regards to various bet sizes on the river, but I would imagine he'd fold most preflop premium hands to pressure and most of his preflop deep-stack hands that he would continue with didn't get there in terms of making a big hand.

[HEK]

The only hand I'd be worried about calling a river shove is 77 JJ...or QQ. I'm with cero in that his flop check is definitely pot control with an overpair, A10, 88 type hand.

A good player with these stacks is firing with a queen or T T on that flop nearly 100% of the time. If he was full on the turn I would certainly expect more than a miniraise. Also, I don't see him ever calling your turn 3bet with AK.

I think it's +EV to shove. He MUST fold an overpair enough times to make it profitable.

[HEK]

Why did you only raise to $4800? I'm interested in your reasoning.