I have Faith

[Borodog]

I find the endless threads about free will versus determinism tiresome and irresolvable. The same with the associated randomness threads. And then it suddenly occured to me, I have Faith!

I have Faith in free will. I cannot prove that I have free will. The closest I could come is argumentum ad ignorantium, which is clearly fallacious and I am always quick to snap people off for, so it's no proof at all.

Yet I am utterly convinced that I have free will. If I don't it's a fantastically good illusion. I have Faith.

So this is what it's like.

[Zygote]

i dont have faith in free will. probabilistic determinism still leaves no room for free will. ...and, yes, the illusion is very good!

[Lestat]

Don't get me started on this AGAIN! I can't comprehend understand determinism and I'm not sure I ever will.

I get the part that it all started with the big bang and now every single result afterward is the cause of an antecedent event. I got that. (I think).

So even the neurons in my brain are the agents of causal effect and beyond my control Wait, I have no control, because there is no control. It's all been set in motion and will be what it will be.

So if I can't accept that I can't control my life... That I can't change myself... That I can't make adjustments tomorrow ... To not be a drug addict... To excerise... To be too lazy to exercise, etc. etc. Am I resorting to the same faith as a theistic believer would?

I do have faith that I am master of my fate. I can do whatever I want tomorrow. Does this mean my axioms are in direct conflict with atheism?

[Zygote]

first tell me what "I" is.

if you mean your body and everything inside, then, i think you'd be interested to know that there are competing genes, with different interests, within you!

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
So even the neurons in my brain are the agents of causal effect and beyond my control Wait, I have no control, because there is no control.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is your error. Of course you have no direct control over your brain mechanics, but you do have plenty of indirect control over them. Imagine something, remember something, think about something. Every time you do, you change your brain chemistry in a measurable way.

But this is a leap many people make. "The future is defined by causal events, therefore I have no control over it." This doesn't logically follow. That the mechanics of your control are physical and causal doesn't in any way diminish the fact that you have control.

On the contrary. The fact that your actions will have causal effects throughout the future of your life (and of the universe itself) indicates that your actions are extremely significant.

Let me put it another way. Some "artistic" people I've spoken with have said something along the lines of, "science is very depressing. After all, science says that sunlight is just radiation, that human beings are just collections of atoms, and that the Earth is just a giant rock." I would really, really like to know something. Where do they get the "just" part from? Yes, sunlight is radiation. But it's not just radiation. It's also warmth, the source of life, a symbol of illumination and divinity, and much more. Humans are composed of atoms - but we aren't just atoms. We're also living breathing beings with feelings and thoughts and the capacity for wonder and compassion and almost infinite diversity. The earth is a giant rock, but it's not just a giant rock. It's also home.

The reductionistic view is just one perspective. It's not the "only" perspective. Every aspect of an entity can't necessarily be described by a purely mechanical-reductionistic approach. I believe the deterministic perspective is valid. Our actions are predetermined events. But they aren't just predetermined events. They are also representations of our will (whether or not it is free), and extensions of our minds, and reflections of our fears and desires, and mechanisms of our responsibility or even faith. None of those facts are contradictory. There is no indication that our actions are less meaningful because they are predetermined. After all, even if the future is based on the past, we don't know what it's going to be. We are fortunate enough to live in the present. So we don't need to feel trapped by the past or the future.

[Lestat]

That's a very good way of looking at it. Basically what you're saying is that even if everything is predetermined it doesn't matter. It doesn't make anything less meaningful. Things are still not predictable (a big problem some people have with determinism), etc. That's fine and I think I can hold the same view. But I want to know...

I have an important business meeting tomorrow morning. one of two things will happen:

1. I will get up early, shower, eat breakfast, and arrive at my meeting 5 minutes early eager and prepared to do business.

2. I will wake up and say, "I don't feel like going. I'll call them and hopefully they'll re-schedule.

It is now the day after tomorrow and one of these two things have already happened. Are you saying that when I woke up on the morning of the meeting, the result was already determined as I now know it to be the day after the meeting? In other words, when I woke up the day of the meeting, I had no choice whether or not I would attend. I may have thought I had a choice, but I was going to do whatever I did anyway.

Determinism does make some sense to me, but MAN!... It's so hard for me to accept.

How do I teach my kids the importance of study habits, work ethics, even having goals, or going to college, etc.? How do I convince them they can be whatever they want to be, if I can't convince myself of the same? Why should I make goals if it's already pre-determined whether or not I'll achieve them? Etc. etc.

Btw- I'm not debating. I think I'm coming around to the idea of determinism. I just don't like it even with your best view on it.

[soon2bepro]

because even if your actions and results are predetermined, you still get to choose. You can't change your choices, but you get to make them. By telling people to look forward to something is to alter them in a way that will ultimately result in their benefit. Sure, that was already "predetermined" in the sense that it couldn't have been any other way. But that doesn't take any meaning out of your actions. Even if you do nothing, you can't escape this system of causality. So you might as well do what's best for you. It's difficult to understand, but the basic idea is that free will is only a feeling (you may call it an illusion) that is there so we can function as a lifeform, making our choices with a purpose in mind. It doesn't matter if consciously you know there is really no more than one choice to make, you just have to feel, subconsciously that there is.

A common mistake when dealing with determinism and the lack of true free will is that people mix this idea with their ideas on fate and destiny, which suggest a superior being has already planned out the way their life is going to be. In this sense they make the wrong assumption that no matter what they do, the result will be the same. That's utterly wrong. It's so wrong that it is an abomination to rational thinking, not to mention determinism itself.


A positive approach that I like (taken from the Matrix movie) is: "Because you're not here to make a choice, you're here to try to understand why you made that choice"

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that when I woke up on the morning of the meeting, the result was already determined as I now know it to be the day after the meeting?

[/ QUOTE ]

If quantum randomness exists on a macroscopic level, then the result couldn't have been determined -- because it is at least partially random. However, it was still "deterministic" in the sense that whatever those random particles end up being, there is no "free will" that can change them -- BECAUSE you too are included in those random particles.


[ QUOTE ]
In other words, when I woke up the day of the meeting, I had no choice whether or not I would attend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's fine to think that you had a choice. But, ultimately, you and your choice were just a certain combination of particles.

[ QUOTE ]
How do I teach my kids the importance of study habits, work ethics, even having goals, or going to college, etc.? How do I convince them they can be whatever they want to be, if I can't convince myself of the same? Why should I make goals if it's already pre-determined whether or not I'll achieve them? Etc. etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, making goals increases the probability that you'll achieve them. So, if you happen to make them, that'll probably be a good thing. But, you'll have to want to make them first, so if you happen to want to make them, that'll help. And, outside influences can increase the chance that you'll want to make them, so convincing your kid that it's worth his time, will help him want to make them which will make it much more likely that he'll achieve them.

You will end up doing whatever your strongest inclination happens to be -- which you have no "free will" over.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that when I woke up on the morning of the meeting, the result was already determined as I now know it to be the day after the meeting?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Already" doesn't apply to determination in the deterministic sense. Think about this - reality exists. Time exists. Time is part of reality, not the other way around. Reality doesn't "depend" on time (it's the other way around). Reality doesn't exist "at a certain time" (reality is timeless). To say reality "already" exists assumes that reality depends on time. I don't think that assumption is justified. But even if it were...

[ QUOTE ]
In other words, when I woke up the day of the meeting, I had no choice whether or not I would attend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this is incorrect. I have to go now. I can try to explain why I don't think this follows later tonight. But it would help me if I understood why you feel this is true. What is your definition of choice? And why do you feel that a deterministic sequence of events takes away that choice?

(Probabilistic determinism seems like the most likely scenario. In fact, if I'm not mistaken some scientists believe that when you have to make that choice in the morning, two "new realities" are created, one in which you choose option 1, the other in which you choose option 2. So there is a separate reality for each choice you make and which reality "you" exist in depends on your choice. Maybe that will help put your mind at ease.)

[Bork]

[ QUOTE ]
How do I teach my kids the importance of study habits, work ethics, even having goals, or going to college, etc.? How do I convince them they can be whatever they want to be, if I can't convince myself of the same? Why should I make goals if it's already pre-determined whether or not I'll achieve them? Etc. etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they will get to bask in the glorious belief that they are ultimately responsible for their own success. Of course they will be wrong if the world is deterministic, but regardless life is just better when you believe you deserve some credit.