Folding a tabled all-in hand @Bay101

SumZero · #1 06-27-2006, 06:14 AM

With people posting weird situations for rules judgements this happened at my table in a $120 spread limit (basically nl) tournament at Bay 101 (pf betting, stack sizes, and some exact cards might be slightly wrong, interesting rules part is right).

Seat 5 is the button with 200-400 blinds. Folded to Seat 1 who goes all-in for ~2500. Folded to seat 7 (BB) who has seat 1 covered and calls the all-in. Players table their hands in front of them and seat 1 has 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Seat 7 has A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Seat 7 has counted out the right amount of chips and dealer has the correct pot in front of them and deals the flop which is 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Dealer does brief pause, taps the table, burns and turns the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The order of events here is close and may be important but goes: Seat 1 thinks he's drawing dead and picks up his tabled hand and folds it in the muck and starts to get up from the table while dealer does his normal brief pause, then after the fold taps the table, burns and rivers the 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Seat 1 at this point in time has no hand. But yet if seat 1 still had the hand he'd tabled all-in he would have hit the flush and won the hand.

What is the correct ruling?

What happened at the time (and I don't know if this was correct or not) was:

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Dealer awarded the pot to seat 7. Some of the table commeneted to seat 1 that he had the flush and seat 1 complained. Dealer immediately called the floor and explained the situation. Floor asked to be sure that the player folded his hand before the river card arrived and upon getting that confirmed ruled that seat 7 is entitled to the pot that seat 1 had abbandoned his hand.

Oh, and in full disclosure I was seat 7, and didn't at any point demand the pot but was more than happy to accept it (I still busted out before the money though - karma maybe).
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RR · #2 06-27-2006, 07:27 AM

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Dealer awarded the pot to seat 7. Some of the table commeneted to seat 1 that he had the flush and seat 1 complained. Dealer immediately called the floor and explained the situation. Floor asked to be sure that the player folded his hand before the river card arrived and upon getting that confirmed ruled that seat 7 is entitled to the pot that seat 1 had abbandoned his hand.

Oh, and in full disclosure I was seat 7, and didn't at any point demand the pot but was more than happy to accept it (I still busted out before the money though - karma maybe).

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This is improper. The reason the TDA calls for the hands to be turned up is that you are not allowed to fold a winner in a tournament. Everyone in the touranment has a vested interest in the pot going to the best hand.

bav · #3 06-27-2006, 07:39 AM

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This is improper. The reason the TDA calls for the hands to be turned up is that you are not allowed to fold a winner in a tournament. Everyone in the touranment has a vested interest in the pot going to the best hand.

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I agree with Randy. And I've seen almost this during a tournament and the floor got the ruling right. The cards have been tabled. That's that. They play.

Annorax · #4 06-27-2006, 08:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dealer awarded the pot to seat 7. Some of the table commeneted to seat 1 that he had the flush and seat 1 complained. Dealer immediately called the floor and explained the situation. Floor asked to be sure that the player folded his hand before the river card arrived and upon getting that confirmed ruled that seat 7 is entitled to the pot that seat 1 had abbandoned his hand.

Oh, and in full disclosure I was seat 7, and didn't at any point demand the pot but was more than happy to accept it (I still busted out before the money though - karma maybe).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is improper. The reason the TDA calls for the hands to be turned up is that you are not allowed to fold a winner in a tournament. Everyone in the touranment has a vested interest in the pot going to the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it disturbing that dealers aren't trained to stop players from mucking tabled hands in tournament all-in situations. The rules don't allow it, the dealers should be following and enforcing the rules.

bav · #5 06-27-2006, 09:17 AM

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I find it disturbing that dealers aren't trained to stop players from mucking tabled hands in tournament all-in situations. The rules don't allow it, the dealers should be following and enforcing the rules.

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Dealers aren't all poker rules lawyers. That's why the floor gets to make rulings instead of individual dealers. This is an unusual enough event I wouldn't expect every dealer to have witnessed it. And if you ain't thought it through or seen it before are you really going to realize in the 2-seconds or so you have to act that you need to stop the player from flipping over his cards and mucking 'em?

SumZero · #6 06-27-2006, 07:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dealer awarded the pot to seat 7. Some of the table commeneted to seat 1 that he had the flush and seat 1 complained. Dealer immediately called the floor and explained the situation. Floor asked to be sure that the player folded his hand before the river card arrived and upon getting that confirmed ruled that seat 7 is entitled to the pot that seat 1 had abbandoned his hand.

Oh, and in full disclosure I was seat 7, and didn't at any point demand the pot but was more than happy to accept it (I still busted out before the money though - karma maybe).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is improper. The reason the TDA calls for the hands to be turned up is that you are not allowed to fold a winner in a tournament. Everyone in the touranment has a vested interest in the pot going to the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it disturbing that dealers aren't trained to stop players from mucking tabled hands in tournament all-in situations. The rules don't allow it, the dealers should be following and enforcing the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case the dealer really didn't have a chance to stop him. He was looking at the board and had the deck in one hand and was tapping the table with the other and the seat 1 person was sitting next to the much acted so fast it was unstoppable. So I wouldn't blame the dealer for that action.

TomBrooks · #7 06-27-2006, 09:39 AM

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you are not allowed to fold a winner in a tournament.

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Can this rule be found on the internet? Anyone have a link?

Mustafa · #8 06-27-2006, 10:19 AM

Though I've never personally faced it, I have always heard that the cards are live and if the player actually leaves the table his stack gets burned via the blinds. There's too much possible collusion to rule differently.

bav · #9 06-27-2006, 10:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are not allowed to fold a winner in a tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can this rule be found on the internet? Anyone have a link?

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I'm not actually positive what this rule is saying, but I think it applies:

http://worldseriesofpoker.com/downlo...WSOP_RULES.pdf

Rule 64

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Harrah's dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was turned face up and was obviously the winning hand

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SumZero · #10 06-27-2006, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are not allowed to fold a winner in a tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can this rule be found on the internet? Anyone have a link?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not actually positive what this rule is saying, but I think it applies:

http://worldseriesofpoker.com/downlo...WSOP_RULES.pdf

Rule 64

[ QUOTE ]
Harrah's dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was turned face up and was obviously the winning hand

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think rule 64 applies. Rule 64 (and some of the other online rules stuff) only talks about the dealer killing the winning hand. They don't talk about the player himself killing the hand.