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View Poll Results: Weak hands with no draws | |||
Bet | 37 | 56.92% | |
Check | 28 | 43.08% | |
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll |
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#1
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Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising
I think it's probably pointless to post this question as at some point against opponents like this it's mostly about 'feel' but I think I might learn something.
HU, 30/60. Both players are laggy, both play reasonably well (arguable, admittedly), both players clearly think the other is full of [censored] and are certainly never folding ANY piece, no matter how scary the board. Lagtard A has been 3-betting preflop a lot with maybe 50% of his hands, and hasn't been hurt by it, though Lagtard B is up about 10BB. Example: About 20 hands ago, Lagtard B raised preflop, was 3-bet by Lagtard A, flop came 623. Check, call. Turn was an Ace, putting two clubs out there, A bets, B raises, A calls with his K8o. River blank, check/call, Lagtard B's K-high is good. Which leads us to this hand and the question of river bluff-raises. Lagtard B raises, Lagtard A 3-bets, Lagtard B calls. Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. B bets, A calls. Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. B bets, A raises, B raises, A calls. River: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. B bets. Situation #1: A has a busted ISD. Is raising +EV? Situation #2: A raises. B has a busted ISD. Is raising +EV? |
#2
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Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising
I can't for the life of me imagine why on earth you would raise in either situation. Neither Lagtard that you described will fold anything that even remotely resembles a hand with showdown value. Why waste an extra bet? Just fold and move on to the next hand.
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#3
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Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising
[ QUOTE ]
I can't for the life of me imagine why on earth you would raise in either situation. Neither Lagtard that you described will fold anything that even remotely resembles a hand with showdown value. Why waste an extra bet? Just fold and move on to the next hand. [/ QUOTE ] I tend to agree, but the thing is that if A or B had marginal hands with showdown value there probably wouldn't be so much action -- either A has a great hand, or nothing, ditto with B. 11BB pot on the river, if B puts A on having zilch 20% of the time, and isn't afraid of a 3-bet bluff, raising makes sense, no? Same goes vice-versa. A knows that B is capable of such goofiness -- remember that hand 20 hands ago -- and I can see a 3-bet bluff being reasonable here. ?? |
#4
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Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising
EXACTLY!!!!
Also, we want to go to showdown, because its possible given these lagtards, that our "nothing" is even better than their nothing, i would rather see a bet wasted showingdown and calling rather than bluff RRing! Also, I think these guys are going to showdown all day long. |
#5
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Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising
[ QUOTE ]
EXACTLY!!!! Also, we want to go to showdown, because its possible given these lagtards, that our "nothing" is even better than their nothing, i would rather see a bet wasted showingdown and calling rather than bluff RRing! Also, I think these guys are going to showdown all day long. [/ QUOTE ] That's interesting . . . let's say that the "junk" hand in question is Q2o. In that case, your argument is that there's very little point in reraising given the situation as he's never folding any piece, and you beat all other missed crap. On the other hand, if you had 62o or 92o or something similar, your junky hand doesn't even have high-card showdown value. |
#6
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Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising
If I have 62 or 92, 1st off i am not getting involved, 2nd all i still cant bluff against this lagtard. Beacuase i may face a rr, and because hes never folding, he is a lagtard and a calling station, trying to Bluff raise a calling station is just ugly.
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#7
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Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising
"If I have 62 or 92, 1st off i am not getting involved"
This isn't about you though...just imagine you got there, so now what? "2nd all i still cant bluff against this lagtard. Beacuase i may face a rr," This alone isn't a reason not to raise! To be fair you made that statement in conjunction with some others: "and because hes never folding, he is a lagtard and a calling station," But I have no idea how and why you believe these things to be true. It's damned hard to be a calling station on the river. We're not trying to get an opponent to fold a piece of the board... I suppose my point here is: don't project, just think. It's not useful in poker to be emotional or assuming. However it usefule to understand the emotions and assumings of one's opponents. -WT |
#8
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I got the action wrong in my original post.
In the final hand, I switched "A" and "B" postflop.
That is, preflop: B raises, A 3-bets, B calls, then: On the A44 flop, A bets, B calls. On the A445 turn, A bets, B raises, A 3-bets, B calls. On the A445K river, A bets . . . Question is does B raise, and if he does, does A 3-bet . . . ? |
#9
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Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising
How can this question be answered without knowing if Lagtard A has a showdownable hand like 88? It only makes sense to checkraise if you have a complete bluff, not if you have something to showdown.
The risk to bluff raising the river, particularly given the example you earlier gave, is that you will get re-reraised on a bluff, and you will fold a winner. Or you will call because of this risk, and you'll find yourself crushed/dead on the turn. So if you have a showdownable hand against a Lagmonkey like this, check-call seems best. |
#10
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Re: Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising
[ QUOTE ]
How can this question be answered without knowing if Lagtard A has a showdownable hand like 88? It only makes sense to checkraise if you have a complete bluff, not if you have something to showdown. The risk to bluff raising the river, particularly given the example you earlier gave, is that you will get re-reraised on a bluff, and you will fold a winner. Or you will call because of this risk, and you'll find yourself crushed/dead on the turn. So if you have a showdownable hand against a Lagmonkey like this, check-call seems best. [/ QUOTE ] Yer not paying attention. Nobody in this hand can possibly have 88. Either player is doing it with a monster or a bluff. We're not talking about showdownable hands like 88, we're talking about perhaps Lagtard B calling the river with Q-high or J-high instead of bluff-raising. |
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