why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL

[KRANTZ]

I almost never start big strategy threads, but I thought I’d make one on this since lately there seem to be a bunch of posts that start out with a preflop limp. OP’s explanation is usually something to the effect of "sometimes I raise, but this time I decided to limp." So I think for the benefit of newer posters/regulars who are looking to move up, there needs to be some discussion on why, in almost all scenarios, raising or folding is generally better than limping.

The limped pot conundrum: You limp a hand like a pocket pair or suited connector. It's limped to the flop. You're immediately facing two significant problems:

1- How do I win a big pot?

You're almost never going to win a sizable pot unless your opponent hits the flop very hard, but you hit it harder. When you raise preflop, you're introducing another layer to the game: c-betting with air, double barrel-ing, the overvalueing of hands by your opponent, bluffing from your opponent, etc. That's NOT happening in a limped pot, or rarely. A raised pot is also better suited for stacking someone; the bet sizes are able to more easily facilitate an all-in.

2- I can lose a big pot.

You limp a hand like Q3d and flop a flush. The BB had K4d and would have folded to a preflop raise. Stacked.

The idea of raising vs limping directly correlates to the idea of switching gears, or changing tempo during your session. The more often you're raising preflop, the more likely it is that your opponent will take a stand against your frequent preflop raises in the wrong spot or spew chips off by making a heroic calldown. As you notice people making plays at you, or calling you lightly, react by either a. firing more barrels at them or b. folding the suited cards from EP preflop. The great thing about a raised pot is that you don’t need to get to showdown to win. And if you do hit, your hand strength is disguised. People will often be calling your frequent raises thinking that they have implied odds to crack you if they hit; of course, that’s not true, because you can easily pitch your hand postflop – the money is only going in with the best of it, or with a great read that they’ll have to fold a better hand. Limping bleeds money. Why limp 44 UTG and then call a raise from BTN, only to c/f a J high flop that you could easily have won by raising preflop and then c-betting?

A hand occurred a few days ago where I had been liberally raising, floating and 3-betting an otherwise solid LAG 2+2 regular. I picked up QQ on the BTN, he raised, and I 3-bet. He called, and c/red a T high flop all-in with 88. Stack to me. That would not have occurred had I been playing weak/tight/passive and limping. He would have checked and folded the flop.

By raising preflop, you’re creating +EV situations where none existed before. Couple this with solid postflop play and you will already be improving. Limping is just asking for good players to pick on you. The key is precise control of your play postflop. Experiment from the CO/BTN first, and then start adding in the other positions. It's alright to fold 22 UTG if you're not comfortable raising it.

The only time I would advocate limping is when there’s some kind of giant fish at the table who’ll pay off like a slot machine when you hit. Otherwise, RAISE.

[yvesaint]

honestly this can be summed up with: people go broke with more hands in raised pots

good post nonetheless, its nice to see solid reasoning behind these concepts.

[MrWizard]

There are plently of successful players that limp a lot. Poker is situational, and thats the bottom line. Adjust to the table and limp when it makes sense, don't when it doesn't.

[KRANTZ]

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There are plently of successful players that limp a lot.

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maybe, but they are not beating HSNL, and certainly not winning as much as they could at MSNL long-term, unless they're playing a very skilled, unorthodox postflop style.

[amoeba]

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There are plently of successful players that limp a lot.

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maybe, but they are not beating HSNL, and certainly not winning as much as they could at MSNL long-term, unless they're playing a very skilled, unorthodox postflop style.

[/ QUOTE ]

part of this might be that at HSNL, you just won't see say 3 guys limp in from EP that often, and thus the situations in which limping is preferred over raising is just not there due to the players involved.

you take a HSNL player that raises very often and adjusts well and ask him to play NL200 and he might find that its more profitable to raise less often preflop.

[cts]

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part of this might be that at HSNL, you just won't see say 3 guys limp in from EP that often

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lol you'd be surprised.

Good post jkrantz. I remember in someone's stats post a few days ago several people advocated a 1:1 VPIP:PFR ratio. I didn't say anything, but thought to myself that they were crazy. I think playing something like 25/12 is far too passive preflop. Everyone has brought up good reasons for raising preflop, some of the most important I think are
<ul type="square">[*]people go broke with more hands in raised pots [*]raising a wide range is a way to magnify our own advantage in hand reading ability over villain's [*]When you raise preflop, you're introducing another layer to the game: c-betting with air, double barrel-ing, the overvalueing of hands by your opponent, bluffing from your opponent, etc.[*]you gain initiative and set up +EV postflop situations due to fold equity, which makes up for the relative weakness of the hand [/list]and best of all
<ul type="square">[*]raising&gt;limping[/list]

[FGators]

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There are plently of successful players that limp a lot.

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maybe, but they are not beating HSNL, and certainly not winning as much as they could at MSNL long-term, unless they're playing a very skilled, unorthodox postflop style.

[/ QUOTE ]

part of this might be that at HSNL, you just won't see say 3 guys limp in from EP that often, and thus the situations in which limping is preferred over raising is just not there due to the players involved.

you take a HSNL player that raises very often and adjusts well and ask him to play NL200 and he might find that its more profitable to raise less often preflop.

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Great point,amoeba.

I found that raising first in with A4,J9,810,910 just ends up losing money in the long run at NL 200.

I miss the flop, continuation bet after checked, get called and there goes $25.

I make all my money by raising pairs, continuation betting the flop when I hit a set and stacking top pair.

I think raising too much of the suited connectors can work at HSNL but is spewage at NL 200.

[GHAND]

agreed, very nice post.

[Jeff W]

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There are plently of successful players that limp a lot.

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maybe, but they are not beating HSNL...

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What is HSNL? Is 10/20 HSNL? At 10/20 there are many players who limp a lot and win. For example, FSUPlayer (Old Screen Name Howard_Roark) was 31/14 for 5-6 handed in my old database and he is a 3 ptbb/100 winner over his last 200,000 hands.

I rarely open limp, but I definitely overlimp fairly often.

[KRANTZ]

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There are plently of successful players that limp a lot.

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maybe, but they are not beating HSNL...

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What is HSNL? Is 10/20 HSNL? At 10/20 there are many players who limp a lot and win. For example, FSUPlayer (Old Screen Name Howard_Roark) was 31/14 for 5-6 handed in my old database and he is a 3 ptbb/100 winner over his last 200,000 hands.

I rarely open limp, but I definitely overlimp fairly often.

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There are spots where it makes sense to overlimp (closing the action, for one, after numerous limpers). But open limp? Like you said, rarely.

Re: beating HSNL - table selection, baby. If you're at a table with the 4 dragons you are not going to beat them by limping, unless it's done in a veryyy tricky fashion. And just because FSU is 31/14 does not necessarily mean he's limping a lot, right?