Ken Miller: scientist and believeing Catholic

hexag1 · #1 09-23-2007, 10:19 PM

For all the Christian creationists on the forum:
If Ken Miller (author of Finding Darwin's God ) is able to accept evolution and keep his faith in God, why can't you?
This man is a respected researcher on cell biology (he specializes in cell membranes), and was the lead witness for the government against the creationist school board of Dover PA.
I watched this lecture, unaware that he was a believing Catholic until he says so 1/2 way through.

I wonder what the Christian creationists on the forum will say after sitting through his devastating criticism of 'intelligent design'

BluffTHIS! · #2 09-23-2007, 10:43 PM

They haven't listened to myself and other catholics here in the past so I doubt they'll be swayed by Ken Miller. Their problem is that their theology is rooted in misinterpretations of scripture, and willful blindness as to what the very early church was really like (the church in the 100s & 200s didn't look like theirs but like the catholic church). Instead they will put their faith in interpretations of 1500 years later martin and johnny-come-latelies, and in *selective* literalism. Plus they can't see the absurdity of denying the proposition that true science and true doctrine cannot conflict, since true science merely describes the universe created by God. But of course for them, "true science" is anything but and leads to more and more ridiculous notions, just as one lie leads to another.

qwnu · #3 09-24-2007, 12:22 AM

For those who may not know, there is a comprehensive archive of the Dover trial transcripts here. Miller spends the first part of his testimony talking about his background and credentials and then gets into the meat of his direct testimony here. It's a very accessible introduction to evolutionary concepts and the ID controversy that I've recommended to several people (non-scientists) who wanted to learn more about evolution.

Thanks for the link; I haven't watched the video, but hope to find the time soon.

BlueBear · #4 09-24-2007, 01:55 AM

Thank you for posting this, will take a look.

Brad1970 · #5 09-25-2007, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For those who may not know, there is a comprehensive archive of the Dover trial transcripts here. Miller spends the first part of his testimony talking about his background and credentials and then gets into the meat of his direct testimony here. It's a very accessible introduction to evolutionary concepts and the ID controversy that I've recommended to several people (non-scientists) who wanted to learn more about evolution.

Thanks for the link; I haven't watched the video, but hope to find the time soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read Mr. Miller's testimony & something struck me as odd. For someone who claims to be Christian, he only mentions his faith one time during the whole thing. Now, granted, that wasn't what he was there to testify about, but it was what he said that is strange. He said that he was "a person of faith & a regular churchgoer." Having some sort of a faith & going to church will no more make you a Christian than sitting out in your garage at home makes you a car.

tpir · #6 09-25-2007, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I read Mr. Miller's testimony & something struck me as odd. For someone who claims to be Christian, he only mentions his faith one time during the whole thing. Now, granted, that wasn't what he was there to testify about, but it was what he said that is strange. He said that he was "a person of faith & a regular churchgoer." Having some sort of a faith & going to church will no more make you a Christian than sitting out in your garage at home makes you a car.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he calls himself a Christian my guess is that he believes Jesus was divine and died for our sins. Are you disputing his beliefs just because he didn't expand on them in a talk about evolution? Because he supports evolution at all? What exactly are you saying?

Brad1970 · #7 09-25-2007, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I read Mr. Miller's testimony & something struck me as odd. For someone who claims to be Christian, he only mentions his faith one time during the whole thing. Now, granted, that wasn't what he was there to testify about, but it was what he said that is strange. He said that he was "a person of faith & a regular churchgoer." Having some sort of a faith & going to church will no more make you a Christian than sitting out in your garage at home makes you a car.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he calls himself a Christian my guess is that he believes Jesus was divine and died for our sins. Are you disputing his beliefs just because he didn't expand on them in a talk about evolution? Because he supports evolution at all? What exactly are you saying?

[/ QUOTE ]

He never said he was a Christian...that's my point!!!

tame_deuces · #8 09-25-2007, 02:43 PM

I think people who use every public opportunity to proclaim their christianity comes of as a horrible cliche. Maybe he wants to put some distance between himself and your average teenage popstar.

tpir · #9 09-25-2007, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He never said he was a Christian...that's my point!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
He said he was Catholic though, right? All inter-sect squabbling aside, Catholics are Christians, whether you approve of their specifics or not. That is the last thing I will say on that since it is not the point of the thread.

Seems you are fishing for reasons to discount Miller so you have a "why" for not watching the entire talk. Did you watch it yet? I would highly recommend his book too, but I know you don't like "thinker books."

Taraz · #10 09-25-2007, 02:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For those who may not know, there is a comprehensive archive of the Dover trial transcripts here. Miller spends the first part of his testimony talking about his background and credentials and then gets into the meat of his direct testimony here. It's a very accessible introduction to evolutionary concepts and the ID controversy that I've recommended to several people (non-scientists) who wanted to learn more about evolution.

Thanks for the link; I haven't watched the video, but hope to find the time soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read Mr. Miller's testimony & something struck me as odd. For someone who claims to be Christian, he only mentions his faith one time during the whole thing. Now, granted, that wasn't what he was there to testify about, but it was what he said that is strange. He said that he was "a person of faith & a regular churchgoer." Having some sort of a faith & going to church will no more make you a Christian than sitting out in your garage at home makes you a car.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you questioning his faith? Because he doesn't believe in intelligent design? Because he is not discussing his faith while giving an academic talk? I wasn't aware that being a Christian means that you can't study science and believe in evolution. Believe it or not, not all Christians believe that they must use every public speaking opportunity to proselytize.