tough river spot vs tough 2p2er

[flawless_victory]

this is a online 5-10 hand vs 2p2er whitelime. we know who each other is, we chat strategy and other stuff regularly on AIM. generally, we stay out of each others way to some extent, but this is mostly WRT PF type of stuff.

4handed game.
eff stax, 1220.

whitelime opens UTG for 35, button calls, sb folds, i call in BB w/ 55

flop comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](110)
check, check, check.

turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img](110)
i bet 85, whitelime calls, button folds.

river K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](280)
i bet 235, whitelime goes AI (i have 865 left)

[flawless_victory]

the first question is call or fold?

now anohter Q.
if u call, do u also call QJ?
if u fold, do u also fold Tc8c?

[GTL]

Can you give us any more reads on the game and the villain at the time? If he turned the nut flush wouldn't he be raising to build himself a pot?

He could have A10 with the ace of clubs but would he make that type of move with the straight? This one is super hard because your hand is totally disguised, its hard to tell what he has you on.

I'm going to hold out to see if there are any more reads you can give us before I give my answers.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
the first question is call or fold?

now anohter Q.
if u call, do u also call QJ?
if u fold, do u also fold Tc8c?

[/ QUOTE ]

as said in my post, it's nuts or nothing. Clearly if he has nothing it's a combination of A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]X. The X could be something like AJ, AK, etc. that he checked th flop with. (xouls understand) a hand like top pair cant beat all his bluffs, and should be folded. a hand like a flush is the same as a set, as it beats all one pair bluffs. if you call w/ the set you call with those too. although having the flush yourself leaves fewer combinations of flushes he could have, so on that basis id be more apt to call with a flush myself.

[luckychewy]

[ QUOTE ]
the first question is call or fold?

now anohter Q.
if u call, do u also call QJ?
if u fold, do u also fold Tc8c?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you call with one you should call with all 3 IMO, and vice versa.

Personally since all I do is call too much, I'd call all 3. Although you probably see A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] very often.

[KRANTZ]

there's more here than apparent on first glance. i think all three hands are a reluctant fold - IMO, they're essentially equal here, with this action. if you look at the board (as i'm sure you're implying from this question), if you held 10c8c the only likely flushes he could have would be the nut flush, Kc9c or AcKc (both of which he would have most def bet the flop), 6c5c (of which he would have definitely bet), or 4c5c (same). Sets and two pair would have also bet the flop, as would overpairs. So you're either up against AcXc, or Ac10x, or a bluff. His hand range is very slim, for sure.

i don't think he's calling the turn to bluff the river; i don't know if i've played with him, but i assume he'd raise the turn if he were bluffing - mainly to define your hand. there's no way he knows that you don't have a flush yourself. so in the end, i'd give him credit for the one or two hands he could possibly have that wins, especially since you guys don't get too out of line with one another.

to sum it up, when he raises the river, you're f*cked

[MDMA]

I don't know, I don't think he will check nutflush on the flop at all often since that's the only point in the hand where the hand is real good. He would definately not check ATcc, wheras AcQx, AcJx and AcTx is very possible.

This hand troubles me, I'm really wondering whether he would ever push this river with AcTx (e.g without a flush), since that obviously changes the answer of your question into a call with the flush and while still a fold with the other hands. This also comes down to a lot what he thinks you'll be leading this river with (with the hand played as it was), and what you're capable calling with.

I mean we're getting into very awkward territory if he's trying to somehow push for value with a straight, and you would think you're basically calling a bluff when you have a flush.

Pushing river with straight seems veeeeeeeeeeery awkward, (and pretty bad to me), but I don't know your history.

This seems like a fold with all three to me, but I really hate mixing your play up with a check with nutflush on the flop here; checking with AQ, AJ (even with Ac of course) some of the time is just fine by me, but checking Axcc is pushing it imo.

[ConfusedAgain]

I would almost always bet this flop 3/4 pot because it has so many draws. Fold river to probable flush.

[TravestyFund]

pretty sure he was looking to chk/raise a c-bet

[Ansky]

[ QUOTE ]
pretty sure he was looking to chk/raise a c-bet

[/ QUOTE ]


duh i think he knows that