Controversy with Sheets?!?!

jlocdog · #1 04-08-2006, 01:50 PM

I guess UTG goes all in but doesn't do anything with his chips. Than Sheets annnounces all in from the SB with T3o trying to make a move on the BB. He is outchipped by the UTG and the UTG flips up KQo and it holds. Out 22nd.

To make it that far in anevent like this and have it end that way must be very frustrating. Do people here think you must move your stack in the middle to have your bet valid. I know verbal bets are binding and by saying all in is all that is needed, but maybe after you declare it you must have to make an effort to move your chips even a couple of inches to represent it? Thoughts.

Exitonly · #2 04-08-2006, 02:03 PM

woo! i did this at turning stone, and felt like an idiot.. now atleast i know i'm not the only one.

and if the dealer doesnt get the allin guyys chips in there, i think he has to make it clear to sheets what the action is.

jlocdog · #3 04-08-2006, 02:07 PM

I wonder if dealer "announced all in". It is ultimately the responsibility of the player to follow the action, but as a dealer you need also to announce it.

As of right now, it is not a rule to have to actually push your chips into the middle. Your verbal bet is binding and to "quicken up the game" they allow for your stack to be in front of you till after the board cards come out and then match up what is owed from one player to another.

MLG · #4 04-08-2006, 02:09 PM

dealer did NOT announce all-in. and sheets was in the 7 seat and could not see the UTG player, or his cards.

Marwan · #5 04-08-2006, 02:10 PM

did the tournament director have anything to say about this?

jlocdog · #6 04-08-2006, 02:16 PM

Ruled that the UTG announced all in and so he is all in. Very weak on the dealers part. Need to do your job.

I wonder if UTG poke very quietly or if sheets wasn't paying attention? Either way, tough way to exit.

Do you think an event like this will possibbly change the way an all in is handled (making an effort to move chips forward to show you are all in) or chalk it up as another guy out? I know this rule has been controversial for some time and some notable players don't care for the fact that you don't need to make any effort what so ever to declare al in. Physical tells are agreat deal in live games and watching your opponent handle his/her chips is a very big deal.

mic_check12 · #7 04-08-2006, 02:10 PM

man that's awful

THEOSU · #8 04-08-2006, 02:12 PM

IMO the tournament director's right.

Having said that, clearly the dealer [censored] up.

curtains · #9 04-08-2006, 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
dealer did NOT announce all-in. and sheets was in the 7 seat and could not see the UTG player, or his cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes the tournament directors seem to feel like you can't use common sense. There needs to be a rule that allows for flexibility in cases like this where the blame can be placed either on the dealer or on the player who moved allin. I can't imagine anyone in the tournament is going to get incensed in a situation like this if sheets was allowed to fold his hand after realziing that the action was not made very clear by either the raiser or the dealer. At least make it mandatory to stop play and put the players chips in the center of the table before the future action.

On a somewhat related note...I've seen too many situations where someone goes allin, and has their cards reasonably well protected, and somehow a dealer manages to sweep them away from the player thus eliminating them from the tournament. I'm tired of dealers mistakes costing a player their tournament. In every case like this the player was at some degree of fault, but really is it the greater evil to allow a player to take back their allin bet when their hand has been swept away by the dealer, presuming there is no action after them?

Anyway this is just another example, but whenever a dealer makes even the most minor of infractions or mistakes, the player should be given as much leeway as deemed reasonable by the TD. I think that in this case, based on the facts as they've been presented, it would be beyond reasonable to allow sheets to retract his allin bet.

jlocdog · #10 04-08-2006, 02:28 PM

That is a fine line you want to cross curtains.

I agree this situation should not happen (both dealer and player need to be more aware of the action) but having a rule that once the chips go in, they are in should remain. If they are leniant on that then it opens up a door that should never be opened.

when I was playing in the $1000 event at Reno last month, a situation came up where a guy bet a $2000 and the other guy apparently went all in but had his "big" chips still behind his hand and out of view. The original bettor said call and then realized his call was way more expensive than he anticipated. He stated he was getting odds on calling the all in for $5000 amount but with those extra chips involved he would have never called. He demanded his money back so he could fold. The TD ruled that the chips in the middle will absoluetly not be returned to him and compromised that he only needed to call what was pushed in (the guy honestly forgot to push his "big chips" in and it was not a move as he was ok with the ruling). Here is an example of the both the dealer and players involved of not "doing their jobs" and it costs someone. Actually though, I thought that ruling was just as the TD didn't make him call the full allin but rather the perceived allin.