5/10 - Q8o - Standard??

[Heisenb3rg]

Just had one of the worst sessions today.. -84BB in 478 hands. Woijhtioeasntiosentioasenniot.
Wont even go into how disgusting it was.

My thought process is messed right now cause im on mega monkey tilt and have been playing a lot of live loose/passive ring games, so I THINK this is standard but want the advice of people with clear minds.

UTG = ultimate calling station ever (called my 15 out semibluff turn raise down with Q high)
BB = 50/40 Spewtard, who's up 450$ at this table while im down 500$. Completly unpredictable. Not a full on maniac though.
Button = no reads

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Heisenb3rg is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, CO folds, Button calls, Heisenb3rg calls, BB checks.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Heisenb3rg bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Heisenb3rg 3-bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB caps</font>, UTG calls, Button calls, Heisenb3rg calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (10BB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Heisenb3rg bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, Heisenb3rg calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (18BB, 4 players)
Heisenb3rg checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Heisenb3rg calls, 2 folds.

Results:
Final pot: 20BB

[milesdyson]

i wouldn't 3-bet the flop. the chance button is crushing you w/ 44/55/88/76/A8/K8 or has two overs + flush draw is too much for me. your equity isn't great in this case.

[TheWunderkind]

why would you call that preflop? Q8o is a crap hand and dont plays good 3 handed &gt; i dont think that you show a profit with that...Postflop is pretty standard besides the Flop 3bet and its unlikely that you get the fishes out with your 3 bet

[Heisenb3rg]

You seriously fold that PF with a super fish and a spewtard in the hand?

[TheWunderkind]

Yeah i fold this

[TheWunderkind]

i might call if button would have folded

[2461Badugi]

[ QUOTE ]
BB = 50/40 Spewtard, who's up 450$ at this table while im down 500$. Completly unpredictable. Not a full on maniac though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would rather find a new table than keep sitting to the immediate right of one of these guys.

[Guy McSucker]

Definitely have a look at the turn before going to town on this hand. So many ugly cards can come off. If you're ahead right now you have to dodge a lot of bullets, and a lot of the time you're not ahead anyway.

Guy.

[Heisenb3rg]

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely have a look at the turn before going to town on this hand. So many ugly cards can come off. If you're ahead right now you have to dodge a lot of bullets, and a lot of the time you're not ahead anyway.

Guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess my concern is about protection on the flop because I figured spewtard/calling station is likely have nothing better than overs and could hopefully fold them facing this action, which would increase my equity substantially if I was ahead.

Because of the vulnerability of my hand, fishies will call 2 cold a lot lighter than most, and the fact my equity isn't all that great right now, you'd suggest a turn donk on a safe card?

I wonder from a value perspective if I'd rather fishes fold overcards or put in 2 bets? Hand protection to improve equity vs building pots can confuse me sometimes. Im thinking unless their hand contains a queen I want them to fold because if my hand is good, they are getting correct odds to call vs MY hand (5.5 to 1 for spewtard plus implied odds).. Against mine and buttons range it's surely incorrect. I guess im just not sure how to think about weighing proecting my hand in a situation like this vs my equity vs button.


I really don't like a turn CR because this is precisly the flop that is raised on buttons position for a free card. Which would be a disaster on the turn if I was ahead.

As to PF I always insta call there, but I'm beginning to think I call too loosely in the SB in the 2/5 structure, wouldn't be surprised if it's a leak. And wunderkid the fact the players are bad is a HUGE reason to play looser in the SB. I'm pretty much guarnteed to get called down by any pair and possibly ace high if I flop a pair, and possibly get a lot of action from the spewtard if I flop a monster. My bluffing equity is literally 0.

One thing I didnt consider though, which supports your idea is that the spewtard is in the BB so my odds aren't nearly as good as they appear because he raises so often pre-flop. However, one thing I didnt mention, I have a vague memory he raised a lot less from his BB than other positions.

I'd also much rather have Q4s than Q8o here because a pair of 8's is going to be awkward to get value from often because of the spewtards agression and not knowing where I stand (as shown by this hand), while hitting a flush is going to net me huge pots because of the spewtard/calling station. I insta-call Q4s.

Also oink, calling a hand like 36s with one player in the hand in a 2/5 structure unless you have great bluffing equity has got to be -EV. I think the difference bettween 1/2 structures and 2/5 structures is pretty substantial because a lot of crappy cards are very marginal, so a small change in your odds can mean the difference between -EV and +EV for a lot of hands. Stox's advice normally applies to 1/2 structure right?

I hate poker

[Apanage]

I think you can go for a checkraise on turn. BB capped on flop and if he doesn´t bet someone surely does.
I thought you donked turn in order to BB to reraise you.