math.. of poker,how to use it?

[Montrealcorp]

hi,i ve receive mathematics of poker and starts to read it....im not a big math guy and wonder how u use this book?

i read a couple of chapter but i must say its pretty filled up by math equation,i shall look into it harder of course but i wonder if (to people who read it thoroughtly)this book is only to comprehend the maths equation or just to take the math as a proof of what is saying about playing poker as u should with some example is showing to demonstrate the truth is speaking about???

[chucky]

The math is there to reinforce the thinking process. What type of poker do you play? NLHE tourney/cash?

[Montrealcorp]

limit cash game,yeah i just was wondering if the maths there was just for proof or a necessity for this book?

i red a bit on optimal play and all...pretty interesting
but the math was a bit tough...

[phydaux]

All the math that you need to be a winning poker player you have already learned in the 4th grade.

If you can count outs, calculate the odds of filling your draw, calculate pot odds and determin if calling a bet is profitable in the long run, then you know all the math you need.

[Gelford]

Montreal, the math is important, but ... well we all can't have an economic degree.

What is important is their conclusions and ideas, so don't worry to much about the math at first at least. Skip the first part (the one called basics) and go to part II (exploitive play, chapter four)

Try crasping their ideas and conclusions, and if those aren't clear, then unfortunately you have to mess with the math, but first try to catch the spirit and message of the book.


And Phydaux .... if you're so smart, then why aren't you rich ???

[Montrealcorp]

yeah thats what i tought gelford ty..
after 1 st chapter i was like wow...

[Hicows]

The first section can be skipped. I would almost say it should be skipped, because if you don't have a decent mathematical background u won't understand much, and if u have some mathematical background it's useless.

The idea of this book is to try to approach a way of play in a nearly unexploitable way ( even though it's close to impossible).
It's not a book about cooking, it's a book about thinking. When you go through this book, you find yourself thinking about many ideas you never had before, and I think that's the most important. U can find your way of playing, and elaborate many strategies.

[phydaux]

[ QUOTE ]
And Phydaux .... if you're so smart, then why aren't you rich ???

[/ QUOTE ]

Workin' on it, Gel.

Perhaps at the levels you play at, all your opponents are skilled enough and observent enough that you need to apply game theory and develop an unexploitable strategy.

I, however, am fortunate in that I still play at a level where most of my opponets are chumps who don't seem to think past their own two cards.

So simple, tight-aggressive ABC play will consistantly win big pots & steal little ones.

I know I'll have to step up my game some day, but right now I don't.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]

Workin' on it, Gel.


[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are and you'll catch up with me soon enough [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]



But honestly, a bloke makes a post, where he states that he is trying to improve his game, so he has bought MOP and is having troubles.

And you reply: Why do you try to improve your game, you don't need skill to beat small stakes.

That is just absurd .... it really is [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Jim C]

As others have said, the thought process is more important than understanding the details of the math.

I feel that one of the most valuable contributions of MoP is a good discussion of exactly how to mix up your play, and an idea of how frequently it may be required (assuming very tough opposition). The whole idea of having overlapping ranges of actions so that you are a favorite to be making the "correct" play while making yourself unreadable is very important. Other literature discusses "sometimes" doing another thing, or "varying your play", but I am not aware of detailed discussions of exactly how much variation is required in different circumstances. Against tough opposition, this stuff is pure gold, IMHO. Again, I am not saying that MoP gives the *answer* to every situation, but it does a very good job of explaining the different factors to consider.

I have a pretty strong math background, so that might be influencing my opinion. That said, I think the book contains *the* best discussion of making yourself difficult to read, complete with mathematical derivations.

The detailed derivation of optimal heads-up shove/fold in NL Holdem is worth the price of the book, assuming one even occasionally plays NL tournaments.

Thinking in terms of "toy games" is a very valuable skill, that has value in many other areas besides poker. Others have called this technique using "orienting generalizations". Clearly, one needs to be able to identify the important factors in a problem so the correct toy-game model is used, but this does not diminish the utility of solving problems this way. Though it might seem "academic" or "theoretical", I think that working through the toy game sections of the book definitely improved my thinking processes when at the table. Working through even one toy game until you totally understand it can't be done just by reading the words, you've got to go over it again and again. In my experience, it has been worth the effort. It might not tell you how to play a particular hand, but really "grokking" these sections will help you. Being able to develop a simple model and use it to test one's ideas is something that many people are not familiar with.

Finally, I think its worth mentioning that this book assumes that you are familiar with all the outs & odds stuff that the other responder mentioned. It is true that this is covered, but extremely quickly; if you don't have your basic poker theory down, then this book isn't going to be helpful. I think MoP needs to be seen as "Theory of Poker 2", for an audience that already thoroughly understands the seminal "Theory of Poker". In that context, its a master work.

After re-reading all this, I realize this comes across pretty MoP-centric, which isn't really what you asked. To answer your question in a more general way: the more you learn about the game, the higher quality your decisions will be. In my opinion, in poker and in *any* other endeavor, once you change your mindset to seek ever higher understanding rather than seeking particular results, the whole world opens up for you. With this view of the world, a process of ever-better understanding and constant self-improvement *is* the use of this material, application is secondary and happens naturally and holistically. That probably sounds pretty fuzzy and non-pragmatic -- I know it would have to me when I was younger -- but I strongly believe that knowledge and understanding is its own reward. If you simply want to make money at the game, you don't need the stuff in this book (though it will help).

Jim