Caesar's Palace- Player went all in and ran away with $ after I called

[Michigan_Madman]

I just left a $2-$5 no limit cash game at Caesar's in Las Vegas. What just happened to me sounds like something out of a movie. A player who had over $2,000 in front of him went all in and I called with $1,255 in front of me. Then the player declared that he hadn't gone all in, took his money, and left. Now to the details.

This player had said earlier that his name is J.R. My name is Matt. We were in the poker room at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas, at table 9 in the middle of the room. I was in the 2 seat, and J.R. was in the 6 seat. FYI Caesar's has all of their cash games going 9 handed now.

J.R. had been playing erratically, and had gone all in for over $1,000 several times on the flop with $100 or less in the pot. One time about 25 minutes before this final hand happened, he went all in for $1,015 when there was about $100 in the pot. The flop was ten high with two hearts. Finally the player in seat 3 called him, with a bigger stack. J.R. had T7 for a pair of tens with 7 kicker, which held up. The other times he went all in like this, no one called him.

So the hand. I get JJ in the BB, seat 2. J.R. raises it to $20 in seat 6. The button on seat 9 calls, I call, as does a limper in seat 4 or 5. The flop comes Jxx, I think J42 or J45. I check, hoping that J.R. will do the all in move once again. Everyone checks around. The turn brings another small card. I wish I had the exact cards, but I don't remember for sure. I bet 40, the next player folds, and J.R. asks me how many bills I have. $100 bills play on the table in this game, and I had 4 of them behind my stack of chips. I had $655 in red & smaller chips, two black chips, and the four $100 bills. I answered him that I had 4 bills. He then said 'I'll put him all in.' I was so glad to hear this that I acted out of turn, something I normally never do. But I had forgotten the 9 seat was still in the hand, I couldn't see his cards. I said 'I call'. Then the dealer said the action was over here (at the 9 seat), at which point J.R. mucked his hand. The 9 seat then folded as well, and I said 'he said he was all in' and the dealer and several players agreed. J.R. started going on about how he hadn't said that, but the dealer and players at the table backed me up.

J.R. then started gathering his money and putting it in his pockets. The floor came over and asked what happened, and J.R. tried to make his case. The table held true, and he became agitated. The floor man put in a call to security. Then J.R. finished putting his money away, and turned to leave. I went around to pursue him, and then the floor man said 'don't, we'll take care of it' and I asked him 'you are going to take care of this?' and he said yes. He had already made a ruling that the all in was valid and that I was owed the money, before J.R. tried to leave.

So the floor man and a couple other poker room employees pursued him. I put my faith in them as they asked, and stayed at the table. About 10 minutes later, they returned with J.R., escorted by 4-5 security guards. The debate ensued again over whether he had been all in. J.R. asked the table if they had heard him go all in, he said 'anyone who heard me go all in raise your hand' and 4-5 people at the table raised their hands. It was also clarified that he had more money on the table than I did, and that I had $1,255 when he went all in. He refused to pay.

J.R. leaves again, with security letting him walk, but surrounding him. I ask what is going on, and they tell me they will take care of it. A few minutes later, I am told that J.R. has been taken to a holding area.

The casino manager shows up and tells me they would do what they could. He said that they could not force him to take money out of his pocket to pay me. I asked if Caesar's would stand good for the wager and collect from him, and he said they would not. He said that Caesar's only deals cards and rents space to players, and that they are not responsible for making sure that bets are paid. He said the only way I would get paid is if the other player voluntarily gives up the money.

Caesar's then asks everyone at the table to make a written statement. I and several of the players agreed, and wrote out statements saying what they saw happen, and provided contact information.

Then a gaming control agent arrives. He is a state of Nevada police officer, in the gaming control board enforcement division. He reviews the written statements of the players, including mine. Then he calls me over, and tells me that he has enough evidence and he wants to charge J.R. with felony robbery. I asked about getting my money, and he said that even if J.R. gets scared and gives it up tonight, that they would keep it as evidence, and I would get it back waaaaaay later at the end of the court case, months later. He said he wants to charge J.R. regardless of what he agrees to at this point, so that players do not try to do this in the future. If J.R. were allowed to leave just by offering to pay up, then he would have had nothing to lose by trying to walk away. I see this police officer's point, and I agree with it. The downside of that is that I am out $1,255. Who knows if I'll ever get it back through restitution. The only way I'll see the money now is from a check cut by the court, after J.R. pays restitution. And of course, that's only if he's found guilty in court, or does a plea bargain.

I asked the manager again about getting my money. I told him, how can you just let a player walk away with his money when he loses? I guarantee if that bet had been at a blackjack table, the casino would have made sure that money was collected. He said they weren't responsible for making sure I was paid, and that they wouldn't pay me, and the only way I was getting paid was to get the money from the other player.

How can a poker room be like this? I would never even consider not paying a bet. So if an opponent doesn't share those values, he can just decide not to pay? He's being charged with robbery, but what if he gets off through some technicality? Caesar's is just going to let the guy go all in, declare that the bet is valid, my call is valid, then let the guy take his money off the table and leave? I think they should stand good for the bet, and collect it from him. Several players in the room expressed their dismay, one guy even said he would never come back. Who knows about that, but is it worth $1,255 for their reputation to be tarnished? I don't know how other rooms would deal with this, but I think especially since this is not a lot of money to a casino, that they would pay me the money, the amount they themselves verified was the wager, and collect it from the offender.

Does anyone have any advice as to what I can do?

Do I have any options?

Would any poker room act like this? If not, where is a better place to go?

Sorry this was so long, and thanks for reading. I'm sure I left some things out and was a little convoluted. If anyone has questions or advice, please let me know!

This is Nevada Gaming Control Board case # 2006-8854-LV.

Thanks,
Matt

[Quadstriker]

Crazy story. Hope you get your money. Hope the villain gets his due from Bubba.

[boondockst]

It by no means would make up for your money but they didnt offer you some insane comps?

[boondockst]

it was funny (no, ironic) that I'd thought about if someone had done this before and I envisioned the player getting gang tackled by security. Insane that this is how it goes down. I'd love to see them stand politely by and not collect a $25 BJ bet let alone a $1K+ one.

[tourney guy]

Some points here:

1) The player who committed his chips and said "i'll put him all in" has DEFINITELY committed a felony...no question about it.

In any licenced gaming area, theft of over $1,000 is a felony. If you steal 1K from a player off of a BJ table or a craps rail, it is a felony. If you pinch 1K off of your losing bet, it is a felony.

Owing another player in poker and not paying is a felony if it is over 1K, simply and irrefutably.

2) Caesars Palace is not liable, it is true. However, the hypocrisy comes into play when the ability to pay back becomes subjective. Madman, if you were a "Diamond' or "7-star" slot or table player, you would have gotten the 1,200 back that very day. Since CP is only making it from you $4 at a time, you mean nothing to them. That is the sad reality. I know for sure HET has NOT paid back 7K stolen from a player off a craps game because he was not a 'rated' player, but did pay back $100 to a 'highly-rated' BJ player who had chips stolen.

It is all about your worth to their bottom line, and loyalty means nothing.

3) From experience, CP did everything correctly. The floor staff has been trained from day one by the original manager to handle these gaming situations. Madman, I would be pissed, but it is the player, not CP, you should be pissed at. You should press charges and make sure he gets prosecuted.

4) In these type of gaming cases, judges and juries are almost unanimous in support of a cheated patron. This type of case has been tried 100 times, if not more, and the thief usually, when he learns of his fate, cuts a deal to couch up the funds, take a slap on the wrist and get his picture sent to every LV casino.

[grdred944]

[ QUOTE ]
it was funny (no, ironic) that I'd thought about if someone had done this before and I envisioned the player getting gang tackled by security. Insane that this is how it goes down. I'd love to see them stand politely by and not collect a $25 BJ bet let alone a $1K+ one.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what happens when casinos are run by Harrah's (The WalMart of casinos) and not by the guys who would have made it so JR couldn't put chips in his pockets because his arms would be broken. In the long run I guess it is better this way but it would be nice to hear someone reply that they later saw JR on Frank Sinatra drive looking for his teeth.

[Riverman]

Wow. Just saw this thread. I think you did well, but I would have tried to talk to someone higher up the chain.

As others have said, you'll get the $ (if they took it from him). He'll probably plead to something sooner rather than later.

[Michigan_Madman]

They tried to assuade me by saying if I came back and played the next few days (I am a regular) they would comp me a dinner. I guess they are doing that to try and keep me from going elsewhere. I'll probably stop in tomorrow to see if there is news, but I'm not going to play there for the time being.

[Michigan_Madman]

Yup, it's like they are so afraid to lay hands on someone now because of lawsuits. What is it coming to when something as simple as this can't just be paid and done with.

[bav]

That seriously sucks, but it about fits what happened at the Rio like a year ago. This is 3rd hand, with the tales being told to me by a player who saw it and a dealer and a floor person in the room.

Someone in the 2/5 game there did EXACTLY the same thing. Said "all-in" without pushing any chips forward, got called, then simply refused to pay saying he did NOT say any such thing, someone must have misunderstood him. The guy was told if he failed to pay he would be banned from all Harrah's properties in the future. He said "fine" and they let him walk. Rio's claim was without video evidence of a crime it was gonna be a he-said/he-said thing, and they didn't think there was much hope of a conviction since the guy had never touched his chips, only declaring his bet verbally.

The player who saw it all unfold said the guy who got stiffed was offered nothing in compensation by Rio at the time. But he said that Rio management actually did make good on it later, in private, not in front of everybody in the room. They didn't want word to get around that they would cover any such losses.

It's a 3rd hand story, so I doubt everything happened exactly as described, but this is what I was told by witnesses. But after that dealers started insisting that when you went all-in you had to push some chips forward.