2007PBWC NLH FinalTable - Bot mistake? or misfortune?

RIIT · #1 10-06-2007, 11:46 AM

This HH is from the 2007 PokerBot World Championship NLH final table.

The players:
$1 chair - AsbakAlpha - a Canadian bot (owner: professional programmer; age: 30+)
$10 chair - Guaran - a student (age: 19)
$100 chair - HTC - a veteran WSOP dealer (age: 40+)

At only 18 hands into the event, the bot made a very aggressive push with A9o. Guaran stayed in with KK and won (he was a 60% favorite).

Asbak, (the bot owner), said that his bot was primed for regular SNG play and so at 3 handed it believed it was ITM and is coded for increased aggression at that point.

The bot saw 40% chances preflop with A9o against all possible hands and risk of ruin was 46%.

Is this a case of bad luck or bad play?

Hand# 2740 2007-09-28 18:14:12 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney 1 2 2 NoLimit Holdem
Guaran Chair8 1051.50
HTC Chair2 990
AsbakAlpha Chair5 958.50 BUTTON
Guaran SBLIND 1
HTC BBLIND 2
DEALER DEAL
Guaran HAND Kc Ks
HTC HAND 8h Ts
AsbakAlpha HAND 9d As
AsbakAlpha RAISE 6
Guaran RAISE 10
HTC FOLD
AsbakAlpha RAISE 952.50 ALLIN
Guaran RAISE 1040.50 ALLIN
DEALER FLOP Qs 7s 2c
DEALER TURN 5d
DEALER RIVER 9s
Guaran POKER KKQ97o One Pair - Kings - Queen Nine Seven
AsbakAlpha POKER 99AQ7o One Pair - Nines - Ace Queen Seven
DEALER POT 2012
Guaran RFND 93
Guaran WIN 1919

RIIT

Slim Pickens · #2 10-06-2007, 12:29 PM

Quickly, what is this $1/$10/$100 "chair" business?

That push with A9o is pretty bad. You haven't mentioned any payouts, but even in the best case for explaining it (that would be 100% to the winner), shoving any hand for close to 10x it's S-C value is very bad unless your opponent is so awful that it could figure out how to fold AA there. The shove doesn't even make sense if you know he'll only call with exactly AA and fold everything else.

Even the call with KK there is pretty exploitable.

What sort of min-reraising range would you expect most people to give their bots? I would think (not that I know anything about making bots, just from a logical perspective) that unless there's a fair amount of random min-reraising in your algorithm (which is hard to make very profitable anyway), that min-reraise would rightly trigger a lot of ZOMG AA/KK set mining, especially with stacks that deep.

RIIT · #3 10-06-2007, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quickly, what is this $1/$10/$100 "chair" business?

That push with A9o is pretty bad. You haven't mentioned any payouts, but even in the best case for explaining it (that would be 100% to the winner), shoving any hand for close to 10x it's S-C value is very bad unless your opponent is so awful that it could figure out how to fold AA there. The shove doesn't even make sense if you know he'll only call with exactly AA and fold everything else.

Even the call with KK there is pretty exploitable.

What sort of min-reraising range would you expect most people to give their bots? I would think (not that I know anything about making bots, just from a logical perspective) that unless there's a fair amount of random min-reraising in your algorithm (which is hard to make very profitable anyway), that min-reraise would rightly trigger a lot of ZOMG AA/KK set mining, especially with stacks that deep.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slim,

Find the diagram of the final table structure here:
2007 PBWC TOURNAMENT STRUCTURE

They are playing for a trophy ring at this point. The cash had already been awarded in the qualifying events.

The PBWC awards final table chairs and stacks to winners of qualifying MTT events. There is no entry fee for the final table - you have to win a qualifying MTT.

The final table chairs have increasing qualifying values based on the entry fee of the MTT qualifier: $1, $10, $100, $1k, ... , etc.

There were no entries at the $1k level this first year otherwise there would have been a fourth player in the $1k chair (or a second stack for AsbakAlpha or Guaran or HTC had at least one of them been willing to throw down for the $1k chair/stack - HTC almost did).

If you look at the results for the other events you'll see that HTC had 2 stacks at the FLH final table and Tyche had 2 stacks at the PLH final table because they each won 2 of the qualifiers.

2007 PBWC RESULTS

-----
As to the wisdom of the bots decision, I think it's a case of bad luck for a bluffable hand. Bot's have to be willing to bluff at some point otherwise they become too readable. Guaran probably would have folded any other hand except AA or QQ.

RIIT

Slim Pickens · #4 10-06-2007, 01:16 PM

This is effectively a winner-take-all structure. The action looked like this, right?

Blinds 1/2
AsbakAlpha (t958.50)
Guaran (t1051.50)
HTC (t990)

Preflop: Dealt to AsbakAlpha 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

AsbakAlpha raises to t6, Guaran raises to t16, HTC folds, AsbakAlpha raises all-in to t958.50, Guaran calls.

AsbakAlpha is shoving almost 950 into a pot of 22. What kind of hand range do you think Guaran's standard reraise from the SB implies? How much of that range is he folding to a push?

HajiShirazu · #5 10-06-2007, 01:44 PM

It was just a sick, sick cooler, only 500 times the big blind with A9? No way you can get away from that there.

RIIT · #6 10-06-2007, 01:56 PM

Slim,

Yes it was a winner take all situation.

(one very minor clarification: the spends were 1 2 6 10 and so there was 19 in the pot before the bot pushed)

I agree with you if this had been a regular cash game where pushing A9o preflop after a reraise from the bb seems way too risky - as I said already, the bots ROR was already at 46% against all hands.

I'm totally speculating as to what Guaran would have done but I think it's safe to say he'd have folded his entire range except for AA - QQ.

They started with 1k big blinds and it's only the 18th hand; I'd tend to not view any preflop raise as necessarily representing an ultra-premium hand (although in this case it was and G. played it well).

RIIT

Slim Pickens · #7 10-06-2007, 02:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you if this had been a regular cash game where pushing A9o preflop after a reraise from the bb seems way too risky - as I said already, the bots ROR was already at 46% against all hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Effectively, it's a cash game. ROR doesn't sound very important unless you think this bot's overall skill edge is huge, which I doubt it would be against other decent bots. If I know it'll call with enough hands such that A9o is +cEV against that range, then shove away.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm totally speculating as to what Guaran would have done but I think it's safe to say he'd have folded his entire range except for AA - QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... that's the easy part. The hard part is his opening range, but there's no way to answer the question without it.

Also, it's so cute that no one even attempted to buy the 1k seat.

RIIT · #8 10-07-2007, 10:25 PM

2007 PokerBot World Championship NLH Final Table
First 18 hands:

Hand# 2723 2007-09-28 18:06:48 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney .50 1 1 NoLimit Holdem
HTC Chair2 1000
AsbakAlpha Chair5 1000
Guaran Chair8 1000 BUTTON
HTC SBLIND .50
AsbakAlpha BBLIND 1
DEALER DEAL
HTC HAND 3c Qs
AsbakAlpha HAND 7d Qh
Guaran HAND 9h 5c
Guaran FOLD
HTC RAISE 1.50
AsbakAlpha FOLD
HTC MUCK
DEALER POT 3
HTC RFND 1
HTC WIN 2

Hand# 2724 2007-09-28 18:07:06 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney .50 1 1 NoLimit Holdem
AsbakAlpha Chair5 999
Guaran Chair8 1000
HTC Chair2 1001 BUTTON
AsbakAlpha SBLIND .50
Guaran BBLIND 1
DEALER DEAL
AsbakAlpha HAND Qc Qh
Guaran HAND Ts 4h
HTC HAND Jc 8s
HTC CALL 1
AsbakAlpha RAISE 3
Guaran FOLD
HTC CALL 2.50
DEALER FLOP 6s Jd 6h
AsbakAlpha BET 4
HTC RAISE 8
AsbakAlpha FOLD
HTC MUCK
DEALER POT 20
HTC RFND 4
HTC WIN 16

Hand# 2725 2007-09-28 18:07:36 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney .50 1 1 NoLimit Holdem
Guaran Chair8 999
HTC Chair2 1009.50
AsbakAlpha Chair5 991.50 BUTTON
Guaran SBLIND .50
HTC BBLIND 1
DEALER DEAL
Guaran HAND 4s Kh
HTC HAND 9c Qd
AsbakAlpha HAND 6d Ks
AsbakAlpha RAISE 3
Guaran FOLD
HTC CALL 2
DEALER FLOP Ad Td 9d
HTC CHECK
AsbakAlpha BET 3
HTC CALL 3
DEALER TURN 5c
HTC CHECK
AsbakAlpha CHECK
DEALER RIVER 4c
HTC CHECK
AsbakAlpha CHECK
HTC POKER 99AQTo One Pair - Nines - Ace Queen Ten
AsbakAlpha POKER AKT96o High Card - Ace King Ten Nine Six
DEALER POT 12.50
HTC WIN 12.50

Hand# 2726 2007-09-28 18:08:12 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney .50 1 1 NoLimit Holdem
HTC Chair2 1016
AsbakAlpha Chair5 985.50
Guaran Chair8 998.50 BUTTON
HTC SBLIND .50
AsbakAlpha BBLIND 1
DEALER DEAL
HTC HAND 4d Ts
AsbakAlpha HAND 4c 5s
Guaran HAND Td 2s
Guaran FOLD
HTC FOLD
AsbakAlpha MUCK
DEALER POT 1.50
AsbakAlpha RFND .50
AsbakAlpha WIN 1

Hand# 2727 2007-09-28 18:08:24 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney .50 1 1 NoLimit Holdem
AsbakAlpha Chair5 986
Guaran Chair8 998.50
HTC Chair2 1015.50 BUTTON
AsbakAlpha SBLIND .50
Guaran BBLIND 1
DEALER DEAL
AsbakAlpha HAND Qd 9d
Guaran HAND 2d 6s
HTC HAND 7h 6c
HTC RAISE 2
AsbakAlpha FOLD
Guaran FOLD
HTC MUCK
DEALER POT 3.50
HTC RFND 1
HTC WIN 2.50

Hand# 2728 2007-09-28 18:08:41 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney .50 1 1 NoLimit Holdem
Guaran Chair8 997.50
HTC Chair2 1017
AsbakAlpha Chair5 985.50 BUTTON
Guaran SBLIND .50
HTC BBLIND 1
DEALER DEAL
Guaran HAND As Qh
HTC HAND 7s 6d
AsbakAlpha HAND 2c Kc
AsbakAlpha RAISE 3
Guaran CALL 2.50
HTC CALL 2
DEALER FLOP Jh 7d 8s
Guaran BET 2
HTC CALL 2
AsbakAlpha FOLD
DEALER TURN 6c
Guaran CHECK
HTC BET 8
Guaran FOLD
HTC MUCK
DEALER POT 21
HTC RFND 8
HTC WIN 13

Hand# 2729 2007-09-28 18:09:15 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney .50 1 1 NoLimit Holdem
HTC Chair2 1025
AsbakAlpha Chair5 982.50
Guaran Chair8 992.50 BUTTON
HTC SBLIND .50
AsbakAlpha BBLIND 1
DEALER DEAL
HTC HAND 5h 7h
AsbakAlpha HAND 7d 9h
Guaran HAND Jc 3s
Guaran FOLD
HTC RAISE 1.50
AsbakAlpha FOLD
HTC MUCK
DEALER POT 3
HTC RFND 1
HTC WIN 2

Hand# 2730 2007-09-28 18:09:30 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney .50 1 1 NoLimit Holdem
AsbakAlpha Chair5 981.50
Guaran Chair8 992.50
HTC Chair2 1026 BUTTON
AsbakAlpha SBLIND .50
Guaran BBLIND 1
DEALER DEAL
AsbakAlpha HAND Qh 2c
Guaran HAND Ah 4h
HTC HAND Jd Js
HTC RAISE 3
AsbakAlpha FOLD
Guaran CALL 2
DEALER FLOP 3h 6h Ac
Guaran CHECK
HTC BET 4
Guaran RAISE 14
HTC FOLD
Guaran MUCK
DEALER POT 24.50
Guaran RFND 10
Guaran WIN 14.50

Hand# 2731 2007-09-28 18:10:04 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney .50 1 1 NoLimit Holdem
Guaran Chair8 1000
HTC Chair2 1019
AsbakAlpha Chair5 981 BUTTON
Guaran SBLIND .50
HTC BBLIND 1
DEALER DEAL
Guaran HAND 6h Tc
HTC HAND 9s 5s
AsbakAlpha HAND Kd 5c
AsbakAlpha RAISE 3
Guaran FOLD
HTC CALL 2
DEALER FLOP 7d 7c Th
HTC CHECK
AsbakAlpha BET 3
HTC FOLD
AsbakAlpha MUCK
DEALER POT 9.50
AsbakAlpha RFND 3
AsbakAlpha WIN 6.50

Hand# 2732 2007-09-28 18:10:25 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney .50 1 1 NoLimit Holdem
HTC Chair2 1016
AsbakAlpha Chair5 984.50
Guaran Chair8 999.50 BUTTON
HTC SBLIND .50
AsbakAlpha BBLIND 1
DEALER DEAL
HTC HAND Ks Qd
AsbakAlpha HAND 3s 2d
Guaran HAND 7h 6d
Guaran RAISE 2
HTC CALL 1.50
AsbakAlpha FOLD
DEALER FLOP 7s Qc 2h
HTC CHECK
Guaran BET 2
HTC CALL 2
DEALER TURN 5h
HTC CHECK
Guaran BET 3
HTC CALL 3
DEALER RIVER 6h
HTC CHECK
Guaran BET 10
HTC CALL 10
Guaran POKER 7766Qo Two Pair - Sevens and Sixes - Queen high
HTC MUCK
DEALER POT 35
Guaran WIN 35

Hand# 2733 2007-09-28 18:11:14 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney 1 2 2 NoLimit Holdem
AsbakAlpha Chair5 983.50
Guaran Chair8 1017.50
HTC Chair2 999 BUTTON
AsbakAlpha SBLIND 1
Guaran BBLIND 2
DEALER DEAL
AsbakAlpha HAND Js 2c
Guaran HAND 5d 5s
HTC HAND Tc Ah
HTC RAISE 4
AsbakAlpha FOLD
Guaran CALL 2
DEALER FLOP Qc 2h 4s
Guaran CHECK
HTC BET 2
Guaran CALL 2
DEALER TURN 2s
Guaran CHECK
HTC CHECK
DEALER RIVER 4h
Guaran BET 5
HTC CALL 5
Guaran POKER 5544Qo Two Pair - Fives and Fours - Queen high
HTC MUCK
DEALER POT 23
Guaran WIN 23

Hand# 2734 2007-09-28 18:11:53 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney 1 2 2 NoLimit Holdem
Guaran Chair8 1029.50
HTC Chair2 988
AsbakAlpha Chair5 982.50 BUTTON
Guaran SBLIND 1
HTC BBLIND 2
DEALER DEAL
Guaran HAND 3c Ts
HTC HAND Kd 6h
AsbakAlpha HAND 3h Qc
AsbakAlpha FOLD
Guaran FOLD
HTC MUCK
DEALER POT 3
HTC RFND 1
HTC WIN 2

Hand# 2735 2007-09-28 18:12:05 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney 1 2 2 NoLimit Holdem
HTC Chair2 989
AsbakAlpha Chair5 982.50
Guaran Chair8 1028.50 BUTTON
HTC SBLIND 1
AsbakAlpha BBLIND 2
DEALER DEAL
HTC HAND Ah As
AsbakAlpha HAND Qs Tc
Guaran HAND 6s 5h
Guaran FOLD
HTC RAISE 3
AsbakAlpha FOLD
HTC MUCK
DEALER POT 6
HTC RFND 2
HTC WIN 4

Hand# 2736 2007-09-28 18:12:19 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney 1 2 2 NoLimit Holdem
AsbakAlpha Chair5 980.50
Guaran Chair8 1028.50
HTC Chair2 991 BUTTON
AsbakAlpha SBLIND 1
Guaran BBLIND 2
DEALER DEAL
AsbakAlpha HAND Ah 9h
Guaran HAND Th Jd
HTC HAND 8h 6s
HTC CALL 2
AsbakAlpha RAISE 6
Guaran CALL 5
HTC CALL 5
DEALER FLOP Js Td 4h
AsbakAlpha BET 12
Guaran RAISE 24
HTC FOLD
AsbakAlpha FOLD
Guaran MUCK
DEALER POT 57
Guaran RFND 12
Guaran WIN 45

Hand# 2737 2007-09-28 18:12:56 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney 1 2 2 NoLimit Holdem
Guaran Chair8 1054.50
HTC Chair2 984
AsbakAlpha Chair5 961.50 BUTTON
Guaran SBLIND 1
HTC BBLIND 2
DEALER DEAL
Guaran HAND 3d Ts
HTC HAND 2h 9c
AsbakAlpha HAND 6d 7s
AsbakAlpha FOLD
Guaran FOLD
HTC MUCK
DEALER POT 3
HTC RFND 1
HTC WIN 2

Hand# 2738 2007-09-28 18:13:08 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney 1 2 2 NoLimit Holdem
HTC Chair2 985
AsbakAlpha Chair5 961.50
Guaran Chair8 1053.50 BUTTON
HTC SBLIND 1
AsbakAlpha BBLIND 2
DEALER DEAL
HTC HAND 3s 2s
AsbakAlpha HAND Tc 3d
Guaran HAND 5d 9c
Guaran FOLD
HTC CALL 1
AsbakAlpha CHECK
DEALER FLOP 7d 4c 5s
HTC CHECK
AsbakAlpha CHECK
DEALER TURN 9h
HTC CHECK
AsbakAlpha CHECK
DEALER RIVER Qd
HTC BET 5.56
AsbakAlpha FOLD
HTC MUCK
DEALER POT 9.56
HTC RFND 5.56
HTC WIN 4

Hand# 2739 2007-09-28 18:13:46 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney 1 2 2 NoLimit Holdem
AsbakAlpha Chair5 959.50
Guaran Chair8 1053.50
HTC Chair2 987 BUTTON
AsbakAlpha SBLIND 1
Guaran BBLIND 2
DEALER DEAL
AsbakAlpha HAND 2c Tc
Guaran HAND Qd 5c
HTC HAND Js 7s
HTC CALL 2
AsbakAlpha FOLD
Guaran CHECK
DEALER FLOP Jh Ts 3d
Guaran CHECK
HTC BET 2
Guaran FOLD
HTC MUCK
DEALER POT 7
HTC RFND 2
HTC WIN 5

Hand# 2740 2007-09-28 18:14:12 GMT PBWC-Valor
Table# 3 Table3 PlayMoney 1 2 2 NoLimit Holdem
Guaran Chair8 1051.50
HTC Chair2 990
AsbakAlpha Chair5 958.50 BUTTON
Guaran SBLIND 1
HTC BBLIND 2
DEALER DEAL
Guaran HAND Kc Ks
HTC HAND 8h Ts
AsbakAlpha HAND 9d As
AsbakAlpha RAISE 6
Guaran RAISE 10
HTC FOLD
AsbakAlpha RAISE 952.50 ALLIN
Guaran RAISE 1040.50 ALLIN
DEALER FLOP Qs 7s 2c
DEALER TURN 5d
DEALER RIVER 9s
Guaran POKER KKQ97o One Pair - Kings - Queen Nine Seven
AsbakAlpha POKER 99AQ7o One Pair - Nines - Ace Queen Seven
DEALER POT 2012
Guaran RFND 93
Guaran WIN 1919

Guaran · #9 10-08-2007, 04:36 PM

You guys are really speculative on my opening range aren't you?

RIIT was correct in saying I am laying down anything except AA-QQ.

As for the range of reraising 3 handed, Thats where it blurs. Honestly, I'm playing a bot differently than I am playing a human. So, Since it was a reraise vs a bot, I am going to have a premium hand; for in most cases if it plays back, it also has a playable hand at a full table. If it was against HTC, You can open that range up exponentially from AA-QQ.

As for the bot, It raised A9, a good hand 3-handed, is probably going to get me to fold 99% of the time, unless I have AA-QQ, and its a big underdog against AA-99. Thats only 6 hands that can horribly beat it, 3 of which I'm folding to the all-in.

It would then be an entirely different discussion on whether or not it needs to risk all-in to a race that early if i had 22-88, again, all of which I'm folding.

I think its a bad play overall, but it got unlucky that I actually had a hand. This play would of worked 97% of the time.

DevinLake · #10 10-08-2007, 05:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think its a bad play overall, but it got unlucky that I actually had a hand. This play would of worked 97% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your calling with 1.4% (AA-QQ). For it to work 97% you bot would have to be raising 46.7% of hands.