My river play bothers me

[OrigamiSensei]

I generally consider my river play to be a very weak part of my game. When to make a value bet vs. check-calling especially seems to be a situation that eludes me.

Ultimate Bet 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Ultimate Bet Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: OrigamiSensei is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, OrigamiSensei calls, Villain calls in the BB.
MP2 is rockish, a 12/6 type which means his raise is probably not a steal - hence the simple call to defend as opposed to the instant 3-bet that would occur with many other players. Villain is a classic LP-P at 36/3/.8. I don't have a ton of hands on either but enough to believe the reads are pretty solid.

Flop: (6 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
OrigamiSensei checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">OrigamiSensei raises</font>, Villain calls, MP2 folds.
Good flop for me. There is a question in my mind whether leading here would be better than lying doggo and going for the check-raise and I wouldn't mind some discussion on that subject.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">OrigamiSensei bets</font>, Villain calls.
Obvious. A turn raise stop and go by villain will cause me to reconsider but for now I stay aggressive.

River: (7.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
OrigamiSensei???

Here's where I have a problem. Naturally I believe I have my opponent outkicked or he was calling down with some middle pair plus a possible straight draw but now the board is very dangerous. I beat AJ/AT/A9/A2 while I lose to A8/A7/A6/A5/A4/A3.

So is check-call the ticket here?

[Mitke]

* G *

I suck at river too but here goes:

The flop is interesting. We could have a wa/wb situation with the rock-MP2 given his very tight preflop range. The board isn't particularly drawy but BB still could have a SD or small pair that we need extract value from or protect against.

Donking might allow MP2 to isolate us from the LPP-villain with a hand that dominates us or easily fold a hand that he'd c-bet with but not call a donk (maybe as wide as KK-88).

If MP2 3-bets our c/r we must be really worried of being dominated and might even fold at some point so c/r might give us more information than him raising our donk.

I think c/r flop is best.


Turn is standard.


River is a b/f (following the Clarkmeister Theorem?). A villain as passive as he seems will not raise this river with anything that you beat. You still have to extract the value from worse Aces.

[BadBigBabar]

easy river bet

and no it's nothing like a clarkmeister, mitke

[Mitke]

[ QUOTE ]
and no it's nothing like a clarkmeister, mitke

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for noting my question and answering it. I'd be also grateful if you could discuss why this river isn't a clarkmeister situation?

I only came across this concept in this thread by reading Harv72b's response and I've been looking for spots to apply it. This looked like one although it isn't a 4-flush.

We have a scary river.
We have a passive and straight-forward opponent (I assume so).
We could c/c or lead.

[BadBigBabar]

clarkmeister is, if memory serves, me, when the board brings something scary (usually a 4flush) and you have been c/cing down and you bet out, out of tempo, instead. it's somewhat of a semi-bluff.

here, we've been leading the whole way so the situation is different.

checkcalling here is bad because he's going to check behind with his worse hands. the board - while superficially scary - doesn't hit villain's range at all except maybe for a chasing 88.

bet and get called by worse aces and high pps imo.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
clarkmeister is, if memory serves, me, when the board brings something scary (usually a 4flush) and you have been c/cing down and you bet out, out of tempo, instead. it's somewhat of a semi-bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not part of it, Babar. The requirement is that you have a hand that you would call a river bet with; action on previous streets is immaterial.

[bozlax]

How deep is your read on MP2? Even a 6 PFR is going to pop this with AJ/AT/KQ/KJ/88-99/etc...you need to 3bang this preflop.

On the flop, I'd have bet out. A rock is going to check behind you with 99-KK on an ace-high flop, but might peel. When you got lucky and BB bet it for you, then your c/r was goot.

Turn standard.

River is an easy bet; only check against an aggro vill that will bet if you "show weakness". If Villan is truly passive post, then you can fold to a raise, otherwise just call. Remember, he can see the straight, too.

[OrigamiSensei]

[ QUOTE ]
How deep is your read on MP2? Even a 6 PFR is going to pop this with AJ/AT/KQ/KJ/88-99/etc...you need to 3bang this preflop.

On the flop, I'd have bet out. A rock is going to check behind you with 99-KK on an ace-high flop, but might peel. When you got lucky and BB bet it for you, then your c/r was goot.

Turn standard.

River is an easy bet; only check against an aggro vill that will bet if you "show weakness". If Villan is truly passive post, then you can fold to a raise, otherwise just call. Remember, he can see the straight, too.

[/ QUOTE ]
As usual boz strikes right to the heart of my concerns. Pre-flop probably is a 3-bet despite MP2 being tighter than usual since I'm in good shape against anything but AA/KK/QQ/AK which is certainly less than half of his range. I believe he would raise 88+/AT+/KJ+ in this position. Had I 3-bet BB might not have seen the flop but then again he was loose enough he just might have.

Likewise I feel I got a bit lucky on the flop. My style of late has been to lead out more often but in this case I thought MP2 was aggressive enough to c-bet it since BB was playing fairly loose and my table image was fairly uncertain at that point. When villain bet the flop, called my c/r and called my turn bet I put him squarely on a lower ace.

I'm still torn about the river. I did indeed bet it but stupidly I called villain's raise only to be shown he hit his gutshot on the river. The reason I'm still conflicted over the river bet is I'm not sure I'm ahead enough of the time. As I noted in the OP six out of ten lower ace holdings beat me. However, I do have to take into account that calling my flop check-raise and turn bet rather than hitting me again probably indicated that he did not have two pair on the flop or turn so I guess I could have reduced the probability of those holdings. So if we eliminate A7/A5/A4 from his holdings I guess that indicates I'm behind A8/A6/A3 on the river but still ahead of AJ/AT/A9/A2, which looks somewhat more favorable to the river bet-fold option.

As for clarkmeister, that only applies to the very specific case of a four-flush on the board with no flush cards in the OOP hand and does not apply here.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 was aggressive enough to c-bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you need to modify your read. A rock will not cbet-cbet.

[ QUOTE ]
As for clarkmeister, that only applies to the very specific case of a four-flush on the board with no flush cards in the OOP hand and does not apply here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true.

[BadBigBabar]

hi boz, the one link goes to the poker wiki thing which i thought was a micros favorite, and for the other i just googled clarkmeister. thanks for being extremely vigilant as always.