worth the steal

[docholiday420]

Playing 5/10, 2 is the bring it, .50 is the ante, is it worth it to raise to 5 to steal the antes?

[ceegee]

depends on situation

[SuitedBaby]

Be nice to know the game you're playing, the number of players, your position relative to the bring-in, your cards and in particular your door card, the others cards including the bring-in card, how the game has been playing, the known tendencies of the bring-in and any others still active in the pot, and of course, do you feel lucky?

Patty

[docholiday420]

the game is stud, and the question in strickly a money one, lets say one to two callers. This is a low ante game is the steal profitable or are you better in the long run to just avoid it. A high door card like an ace or K, from any position, because stealing early might get more respect then obvious steal move from an obvious steal position. This is a generic question, some pro's like chip reese feel in the low ante situation, the ante steal is a worthless play not worth the risk, is this one of those situations?

[PoorLawyer]

I don't think a pure steal is worth it if there are already 1-2 callers. They most likely won't fold and you probably have the worst hand. If you do raise, you will have to pound until 5th and hope they don't improve and aren't the typical online player that will see it to the end regardless.

[RandomUser]

Periodic stealing is definitely worth it because it guarantees you action on your real hands.

You can't just consider the money gained/lost from the steal attempt, you have to think about how it shapes your table image.

[templar999]

[ QUOTE ]
the game is stud, and the question in strickly a money one, lets say one to two callers. This is a low ante game is the steal profitable or are you better in the long run to just avoid it. A high door card like an ace or K, from any position, because stealing early might get more respect then obvious steal move from an obvious steal position. This is a generic question, some pro's like chip reese feel in the low ante situation, the ante steal is a worthless play not worth the risk, is this one of those situations?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure of the best way to answer your question, because I don't think there is an answer. So maybe these few concepts will help you generally in stud.

1. I'm nearly certain Chip Reese never said the ante steal is worthless even when it's small. He might have suggested that you should contest the antes less often, either as the BI or as the high card, because its value goes down, but it's definitely not worthless.

2. If you never stole antes in a 5/10 stud game, you can still be a long-run winner.

3. If you never stole antes in a 5/10 stud game, you won't be as big a winner as you could be.

4. Raising at a 5/10 game with the high card with two limpers and the BI on a steal is like... well, trying to hold up the 99 cent store located next to the police station. The risk-reward ratio is very very bad. If you're considering it, you really ought to re-examine the concept of an ante steal.

[docholiday420]

[ QUOTE ]

1. I'm nearly certain Chip Reese never said the ante steal is worthless even when it's small.

[/ QUOTE ]

Super System page 156 FIRST SENTENCE after the ante stealing section:

"Stealing the ante is a worthless manuever in low-ante structure games."

I'm an a history teacher, so please don't doubt the research and reference.

Chip's advice is exactly the reason for this thread.

Randomuser and dsaxton make great points for another benefits of of the ante steal along the the lines of table image. A benefit Sklansy talks about in "Advanced."

However, Sklansky also gives the money being 4-3, and states in the introduction the game is 15/30 with 2 antes and 5 bring in. The ante is 1/15 of BB not 1/20 as .50 is to 10.

Also the bring in is 5 which is 1/6 [15/30] where at 5/10 the bring in at 2 is 1/5. Because of this the complete bet of 15 [15/30] is three times the is bring. (How this affects those who have money already in and are debating to call your raise), yet 5 to 2 [5/10] Is 2.5 times bigger and just might induce more to call, so the ante steal is less profitable.


Basically the point of all of this is that the math is wrong, and more to a disadvanatge for the ante steal. If you know Sklansky, you know he is a math guy, so maybe he would he not recommend the steal at all at this structure. In fact on page 5 he admits some of the information is not always accurate at the lower levels because the ante is proportionally smaller. And that is exactly what is in question for this thread, the "structure."

Is the "structure" of this game the low ante situation that is considered "worthless" by Reese to not even try and Sklansky would not suggest if asked?

So those in the "how many players, what position, what are your cards?" delimma are overthinking this question. These factors are not conducive to the answer. The question is strickly considering the structure. And it is especially counter-productive to distort what the pro's suggest.

This is probably mostly my fault, and I probably worded it wrong. I am only asking if your ante is 1/20 the BB, the bring in 1/5 of the BB (.50 and 2 respectively) is this the low ante, worthless situation that some pros recommend to not even try the ante steal?

[docholiday420]

It's also a live game at Foxwoods. (Any foxwoods players out there) So consider giving .50 to the dealer each time.

[templar999]

Fair enough, I stand corrected. This is a good reminder that I probably need to review some old books again.

[ QUOTE ]

Is the "structure" of this game the low ante situation that is considered "worthless" by Reese to not even try and Sklansky would not suggest if asked?

I am only asking if your ante is 1/20 the BB, the bring in 1/5 of the BB (.50 and 2 respectively) is this the low ante, worthless situation that some pros recommend to not even try the ante steal?


[/ QUOTE ]

The 1/20 ante is probably the smallest ante you'll find in any stud game. So if there were a worthless situation as Reese suggests, this would be it.

That said, I don't think ante stealing is ever worthless. The only game where I would never consider an ante steal would be a 1-5 spread limit game, but that's because there are no antes. I regularly play at 10/20 with a 1/3 structure, which is even more "worthless" than the 5/10 structure. And the game is stud hi/lo no less, where the BI already has for certain 1/3 of a hand with which to defend. I know for certain I'm the tightest player at the table, and I still do my fair share of stealing. If there's money out there, no matter how disproportionate to that of future bets and not taking into account personal playing preferences, there will always be an optimum steal % greater than zero.

The one situation where you would never steal comes up if your BI opponent never folds. But you would now complete for other reasons.