100/200 A4o on the button

Paluka · #1 09-12-2006, 11:26 AM

100/200 6 max on pokerstars. The big blind is an unknown to me, so far hasnt' done anything weird in one trip around the table.
Folded to me, I raise A4o on the button. Big blind calls.

Flop 258 rainbow.

check, I bet, bb checkraises.

3 bet or call? Is this a spot where you want to vary your play? Am I making a move on the turn?

Mostly I'm wondering if one particular line has a lot of EV here, or if the various lines you can take are pretty close and you just want to mix up your play.

Hock_ · #2 09-12-2006, 01:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
100/200 6 max on pokerstars. The big blind is an unknown to me, so far hasnt' done anything weird in one trip around the table.
Folded to me, I raise A4o on the button. Big blind calls.

Flop 258 rainbow.

check, I bet, bb checkraises.

3 bet or call? Is this a spot where you want to vary your play? Am I making a move on the turn?

Mostly I'm wondering if one particular line has a lot of EV here, or if the various lines you can take are pretty close and you just want to mix up your play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an absurdly common situation, since it's a prime re-steal situation for BB since he assumes you are more likely than not to have big cards and the board is so low and ragged. So here's the anaylsis, I think:

He has: (a) air, (b) a pair (or better), (c) some flavor of str8 draw.

If he has (a), there's no point in raising at all, since you want him to keep firing.

If he has (b), then most opponents are folding no matter what, so there's no point in raising unless you hit your A. 3-betting the flop is an option, but only if you're committed to getting to showdown and you think it'll buy you a free card, which often it won't in the 1/2 game, at least on Party.

If he has (c), then I think the best approach is to call the flop raise and then raise the turn if any card other than a 3,4,6,7, or 9 hits. If re-raised I think you have to fold barring a really strong read.

Barring a particular read, then, my default is to call the flop raise and then raise the turn (and check through the river unimproved) if the turn is a T or higher. If any of the scare cards (in (c), above) hit the turn and BB bets, I usually fold.

Paluka · #3 09-12-2006, 01:24 PM

This analysis didn't help me much, mostly it just said stuff I already knew. I mean he has nothing, a pair, or a draw. No kidding?

Hock_ · #4 09-12-2006, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This analysis didn't help me much, mostly it just said stuff I already knew. I mean he has nothing, a pair, or a draw. No kidding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you're welcome. Obviously the other people who responded provided much greater insights. You think there's some magic bullet? You need to play poker. And not be an ass.

Keepitsimple · #5 09-12-2006, 01:55 PM

I agree with Hock. I dont really see whats so special about this hand. Most players defend with such a wide range that that flop hits as many gutshots as any other somewhat coordinated flop.

You already know that there are more pair hands than pure draw hands that raise that flop. And I doubt any pair folds ever on such a board. So I like call/call/fold most of the time. If the board pairs or something obv you call river too.

bicyclekick · #6 09-12-2006, 02:09 PM

Cmon paluka that was pretty damn ridiculous. The guy tried to help and gave you about as good of analysys as you're going to get around here and you come and rip him?

I hope your just having a really bad day cause that was pretty rude.

tongni · #7 09-12-2006, 02:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This analysis didn't help me much, mostly it just said stuff I already knew. I mean he has nothing, a pair, or a draw. No kidding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, there's no magic formula to playing ace high.

Jerk.

ledfoot · #8 09-12-2006, 02:20 PM

I gather that more than one person is this thread is not having a great day.

Shandrax · #9 09-13-2006, 04:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This analysis didn't help me much, mostly it just said stuff I already knew. I mean he has nothing, a pair, or a draw. No kidding?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you can call, raise or fold. There is no absolute "best" play in this situation, it depends. The conservative play is to call, but if you think he is making a move on your or if you want to create an image of being tough to run over for example you can certainly deviate.

I mean questions like "I got XX and my opponent raised me, what shall I do?" cannot be answered with detailed analysis.

Paluka · #10 09-13-2006, 06:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This analysis didn't help me much, mostly it just said stuff I already knew. I mean he has nothing, a pair, or a draw. No kidding?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you can call, raise or fold. There is no absolute "best" play in this situation, it depends. The conservative play is to call, but if you think he is making a move on your or if you want to create an image of being tough to run over for example you can certainly deviate.

I mean questions like "I got XX and my opponent raised me, what shall I do?" cannot be answered with detailed analysis.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just not really sure I agree with this. I think that I'm just not good enough at poker yet to recognize the best plays in spots like this. Right now they all look the same to me, but maybe at some point I'll realize that one of the lines is going to be the best one the vast majority of the time, or at least I'll figure out which players I should use which line against. I agree that there are some spots where we feel like "well, either he has it, or he don't". But in reality we should be able to place some sort of approximate % chance to his various holdings and figure out a play from there. We need to create a statistical model of our opponents in our brains.