Crying River Call ???

[Bicycles_Biatch]

Raiser UTG...

Two Callers...

I 3 bet with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button.

UTG calls and looks disgusted... two calling stations in the middle do what they are suppose to do.... call.

Flop

Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

checked to the guy on my right... who bets.

I raise.

Everyone else folds. He just calls.

Turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Guy to my right bets... I raise again.

He three bets... I call

River K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

He bets... I make the biggest donkey crying call of my life.

Thoughts on how poorly I played all street?

BTW... my table image was pretty good up to this point.

I would say my range of hands (from the other players perceptions) would be over-pair, big flush draw, or set here. Maybe getting jiggy with JJ... but I don't think my image was such.

[ProfessorBen]

Go back in time and call the turn.

[bernie]

You shoved his hand down your own throat. The turn is the only street I really see anything wrong. The river a bit too, but minor in comparison. Looks alot like a set and given the turn play(3bet) but it also looks like you're beat on the turn when he donks it, a pair isn't going to win this. One reason the river is a mistake is because of the 3 bet on the turn.

A calling station is betting into a preflop 3 bettor and flop raiser. This is time to just call the turn.

Of course, in just calling the turn, you'll probably have to look at calling the river. But his turn donk should be telling you something.

b

[johnnylovescandy]

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He bets... I make the biggest donkey crying call of my life.

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grow some and raise the river...

[rafiki]

[ QUOTE ]
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He bets... I make the biggest donkey crying call of my life.

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grow some and raise the river...

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your advice makes me cry

[surfdoc]

preflop is standard

flop is very questionable. I would like to hear your thoughts and plan before I tell you mine but I will tell you I think a call is better by a good amount.

Turn is somewhere between bad and horrible. Did you think he was donking planning to fold?

River is well, you know.

[Bicycles_Biatch]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is standard

flop is very questionable. I would like to hear your thoughts and plan before I tell you mine but I will tell you I think a call is better by a good amount.

Turn is somewhere between bad and horrible. Did you think he was donking planning to fold?

River is well, you know.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thought was that I was a big favorite against the random holdings of the guy to my right. He was a preflop calling station... but I've seen him donk bet several times with middle pair on the flop or turn.

I felt required to raise the flop with two over and a nutty draw.

I felt like a dip-stick on the turn (obviously) as soon as my second stack of chips hit the felt and he reached deep into a stack of yellow.

by the river... I'm getting something like 14 to one to make the crying call...

The guy was a calling station... but not a pure-breed... I could see him playing a hand like Q-10 of spades as it had played out. Like I said... he was a preflop calling station but I'd seen him get jiggy once before and C/R with naked over-cards post flop.

I don't really mind my call on the river or the flop... but I think my turn play was absolutely horrendous.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
preflop is standard

flop is very questionable. I would like to hear your thoughts and plan before I tell you mine but I will tell you I think a call is better by a good amount.

Turn is somewhere between bad and horrible. Did you think he was donking planning to fold?

River is well, you know.

[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
My thought was that I was a big favorite against the random holdings of the guy to my right. He was a preflop calling station... but I've seen him donk bet several times with middle pair on the flop or turn.


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I think we should spend some more time discussing your flop play. With your description of the player, I think it is pretty clear the moment that donk bet slides in that you are not winning the hand unimproved. Sure he has donk bet middle pair before but given this board texture it is pretty unlikely that is what he has. He has a queen here a lot and a draw here a lot. (somtimes he has both [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) Now, when you raise the flop I think you should have a plan. You have to come in here and say the reason. You should tell me: well doc, I wanted a free card and was sure this loose passive donk would give it. Or I felt the pot was big enough that I wanted to clean up outs and the limpers were capable of having AND folding A2/A4 or K2/K4. I could even except the argument that you were growing tired of his donking ways and wanted him to understand that he needs to stop messing with you when you are in control of the pot. (I don't like this reasoning but I can at least get it a little from a metagame perspective). The reason you gave as being a favorite is not the right way to think about it. This is not unlimited bet HE.

You need to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of this flop raise. I laid out the main advantages above. Also, per Garland:

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The flop raise is not bad, not at all:

(1) You avoid having to chop by cleaning out any other AK out there.
(2) You gain huge if you can actually fold out a hand like A2/A4 cleaning up your outs. This would be a major coup with the pot size now, but who knows?

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Here are some problems. The preflop action doesn't really go along with a guy having another AK and even if he does you aren't gaining too much by folding him out since he has 2 of your outs instead of just one. Also, unless these guys are uber donks they won't often be limping with K4 or A4 since it will have to be offsuit to make a pair on this board since you have the As AND the Ks and the two small cards that could have you reverse dominated are both spades. So, these are things to think with respect to cleaning up outs especially in larger pots but IMO are not as valuable in this particular pot.

There is one main arguument not to raise the flop and I think it trumps all the reasons to raise it. By raising this particular flop you are really just destroying your implied odds and likely to get it HU with a better hand. As soon as the player you desribed fires out a bet you should realize that you will never win this pot unimproved. You then need to think about how you can get the most money in the pot with your solid draw. Somtimes playing straighforward is the correct way to play and you have to distance yourself from the 2p2 bird on your shoulder that starts screaming "raise raise raise that is what we do" whenever you have a good hand or draw. I will accept that maybe I see this spot as a little more black and white since some pretty good players came through this thread and glossed over the flop play but in this hand against this player on this board I will be very suprised if someone can convince me I am wrong. Thoughts?

[Sailboats]

Thoughts? you covered everything... good post.

[Garland]

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Somtimes playing straighforward is the correct way to play and you have to distance yourself from the 2p2 bird on your shoulder that starts screaming "raise raise raise that is what we do" whenever you have a good hand or draw. I will accept that maybe I see this spot as a little more black and white since some pretty good players came through this thread and glossed over the flop play but in this hand against this player on this board I will be very suprised if someone can convince me I am wrong. Thoughts?

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Ok, here's some more thoughts on the whole deal:

We raise this big draw not only for the aforementioned reasons, but for deception as well. If we only call our draws and raise our made hands, we have lost the deception war. I will raise with AK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], AQ, or a set all the same here, and I don't want them to know exactly which hand I have.

Let's see. We call with our flush draw on the flop, and raise the turn when the flush actually comes. Hmm. Somewhere in the processing of the opponents, they will figure out you must have the goods, and would be correct to fold (unless they happen to have a big spade). Not our desired result.

If we raise the flop, we have built a pot. Build a pot for our opponent worth clinging on to even when we hit on the turn. That is one of our goals. From empirical evidence, I've had many an opponent in this type of situation call down with a Q, even when I hit an A or K on the turn.

So a baby flush card comes, KQ, QJ, would be tied into the pot, even if his/her hand contained no spade and we win more, which is one of our goals in the game in addition to deception.

And yes another reason I didn't mention earlier but thought was rather obvious is, most of the time you can buy a free card and save half a bet. Unless you feel you can buy the pot outright against the right competition on the turn. If you fold the field and the 7, Q doesn't come, you will most likely have that option against the opponent.

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Also, unless these guys are uber donks they won't often be limping with K4 or A4 since it will have to be offsuit to make a pair on this board

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This is an excellent point, but never *ever* underestimate bad players. I've seen too many people who call any and all bets with A-rag offsuit pre-flop.

Garland