question from schneids' latest CR vid, BB defense with 44

[yourface]

the video is schneids playing 2 tables of 15/30 on stars

around 1 minute in schneids has 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the BB
folded to button who opens, SB call, schneids calls
flop is 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB checks, schneids checks, button bets

schneids says something about how he is going to c/r if the SB calls, but then the SB checkraises and something comes up on the other table so we never hear why

so, why?

thinking about it for a minute what I came up with was that button is probably going to take a free card on the turn when we're ahead, and giving a free card to a combined 12+ outs sucks.

doing some stoving I don't think that we have an equity edge here to push, but checkraising does make the hand easier to play. this is something I've noticed in a bunch of his vids, particularily heads up (more huhu vids plz schneids, preferably vs bad/mediocre LAGs at 5/10+). a lot of hands that I will play as bluff catchers (Ax Kx small pairs), schneids will play aggressively.

I'm hesitant to do this because of the risk of folding the best hand to a semibluff from an aggressive villain. does this kind of play require a read that we can comfortably fold to further action, or that calling down further action is more +ev than c/c?

[jba]

the thing about stove is it doesn't account for hands like K8 that never see the river. so stove thinks that hand has six outs twice when really he only has it once max. stove is awesome but falls really short sometimes.

[yourface]

yea I know what you mean, but even if we account for that (I tried adding the 2h to the board when looking at the flop play, and that doesn't even consider if villain picks up a draw on the turn) it's still super thin.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
yea I know what you mean, but even if we account for that (I tried adding the 2h to the board when looking at the flop play, and that doesn't even consider if villain picks up a draw on the turn) it's still super thin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before thinking of it like that, consider there's 4BBs in the pot by the time the action gets to you on the flop (after the PFR bets and the SB calls). Now if we're going with the read that the SB has a ~7 outer (6 for overcards, 1 for a BD draw), and now sometimes the same for button, sometimes he's sharing outs with the SB, and sometimes the button has us beat, it amounts to becoming close if there's less money in the pot, but +EV when factoring in 4BBs already in the pot. And of all the ways to play the hand, checkraising the flop is the one which allows you the most clarity and ability to fold if behind (basically if anyone ever raises you on the turn or 3-bets the flop), over represent your hand and get 6 outers to fold on the turn, and garner you more action on future hands if you showdown this one.

I basically think of it like this: I'm beating SB, and for 1 more SB there's a 1 in 6 chance he's gonna turn me. My flop checkraise is basically getting me 5:1 on my money. I'm ahead of the PFR more than 1 in 5 times right, and a lot of the times when I'm not he'll let me know quickly because of the third guy in the pot. Even towards the bad end cases and they each have 10 outs, the turn hits either of them less than half the time.


A large factor for checkraising is that your hand is played strong enough, yet is overall weak enough, that if you're given a lot of action at any point, it's easy enough to get away from. Yet also, because of the drawy nature of the board, we may get an ace high to take an extra card off against us if the turn blanks a red 2, so, there's even more added EV in the postflop line.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
I basically think of it like this: I'm beating SB, and for 1 more SB there's a 1 in 6 chance he's gonna turn me. My flop checkraise is basically getting me 5:1 on my money. I'm ahead of the PFR more than 1 in 5 times right


[/ QUOTE ]

schneids thanks a ton for the posts in this thread, but I can't make sense of this part.

[Heisenb3rg]

Schneids , incredible posts man..

My current "connundrum" I guess you could say is very much related to what your saying.

1) Being too readable in "call down" situations
2) Countering people who c/r with ace high/air

I know you like to get agressive HU with ace high on occasion, but ive wondered which board textures are best to NOT do it with.

Clearly on boards like 933 and you have A8o, you probabily have the best hand vs a button opener, so it not only widens your play back range on these boards (get more action on your trips/pairs etc), but your doing it with the likely best hand.

The boards that im not sure how to handle are the
J95 type boards with a flushdraw.

Basically a board where I expect really light call downs, and very frequnt playbacks, so I WANT to get agressive with any pair.. Also a board where I have tons of semi bluffing hands.

With ace high on these boards I dont want to get agressive, because I know ill be rebluffed so frequently..
I dont want to fold because theres a good chance I still have the best hand vs a loose opener.
I dont want to call down because my hand is face open.

A couple ideas I had:

a) c/r A hi, call down to a flop 3-bet if most draws dont complete, fold to a turn raise.
b) c/c two streets with some good gutshot hands like KT, Q9 and fold to the 3-barrel, to encourage 3-barreling of garbage from opponent.

Still not satisifed tho..
Thoughts would be apreciated in regards to board texture.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I basically think of it like this: I'm beating SB, and for 1 more SB there's a 1 in 6 chance he's gonna turn me. My flop checkraise is basically getting me 5:1 on my money. I'm ahead of the PFR more than 1 in 5 times right


[/ QUOTE ]

schneids thanks a ton for the posts in this thread, but I can't make sense of this part.

[/ QUOTE ]

3BBs in PF, a bet and a call on the flop so we're up to 4BBs. If I checkraise and both call, that makes 5BBs for my 1BB invested on the checkraise. Basically I'm disregarding SB's hand and saying when he only check-calls, he has overcards. So then I'm saying, when making sense of the checkraise, because of the 5:1 my flop checkraise just was, I'm contending that it should make sense that I have a better hand than the CO at least 1 in 5 times, therefore making the checkraise alright, even if on the surface it seems spewey. In my OP though, I got a little brainjamed and that "1 in 6 times the SB turns me" should really be more like 1 in 8 (assuming a 6 outer, which is where my 6 I typed came from in my head). I'm not stating the same for CO since it's also possible the CO is already beating my 44.

[HOWMANY]

When he mentioned that he was gonna c/r that hand I was like "wtf awful" but then when I thought about it more I was like "wow that's genius". I'm not really sure if I changed my mind just because I think Schneids is the god of lhe or if it is actually a great play but it definitely gave me something to think about.

wrt to the way he plays AX/KX/small pair aggressively on certain board textures, I find when I am playing well/running well I play them aggressively while if I am losing and not playing my best I will generally find a way to show them down cheaply or at least get far enough into the hand that I'm convinced I am beaten. One of the big problems is that if you c/c flop and turn in almost any situation after putting in no aggression at any point it is pretty obvious your hand sucks whale [censored] and you're going to c/c down because any draw or reasonable made hand you would put in more action earlier. There are ways to balance this like c/c flops more with good hands and draws to c/r turn but against most people I think it's better to just do your stuff on the flop.

[londomollari]

Didn't he explain the reasoning when he discussed the k4o live hand?

[HOWMANY]

Yeah similar explanation but in this spot he will actually have the best hand a lot.