+EV Craps through Comp Points?

[mmcd]

I was thinking about craps and casino comp points, and I think I have come up with a decent +EV scheme. 2 players each bet fairly heavily (and equally) on the pass and don't pass lines, and one of them also bets a smaller amount on 12. It seems that the variance here will be fairly low, allowing the 2 players to make very large bets and only suffer a small loss (~$0.58/roll for every hundred dollars bet by each on the pass/don't pass lines).

So if me and a friend were to bet $1000 each on pass/don't pass and $34 on 12, It seems the amount we'd gain in comp points would far exceed any loss at the table. If these points could be converted to cash (even at a steep discount) it looks like this system would produce free money with very little risk.

Am I missing something here?

[SheetWise]

You would have very little variance without the bet on 12 -- with the bet on 12 you would have virtually no variance. Without the 12 and $100 front and back you're going to lose $100 1 out of 36 rolls -- $2.78 per -- how do you get .58? With a bet on 12 you will lose more.

If you're looking for a rating, I would only play at busy tables and play an amount similar to the other players. If you're the only two players at the table playing 1,000s it will be obvious. I assume you'd buy and lay full odds as well.

[Wake up CALL]

One thing you may be missing is that table comps cannot be turned into cash like slot points can (with very very rare exceptions such as travel reimbursement or being a whale with a % of your losses returned).

[mmcd]

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One thing you may be missing is that table comps cannot be turned into cash like slot points can (with very very rare exceptions such as travel reimbursement or being a whale with a % of your losses returned).

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Comp points can be bought and sold among players at some casinos. I doubt casinos endorse this sort of thing as policy, but it can and does happen.

[Wake up CALL]

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[ QUOTE ]
One thing you may be missing is that table comps cannot be turned into cash like slot points can (with very very rare exceptions such as travel reimbursement or being a whale with a % of your losses returned).

[/ QUOTE ]

Comp points can be bought and sold among players at some casinos. I doubt casinos endorse this sort of thing as policy, but it can and does happen.

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I don't think you understand the difference between slot earned comps and table game comps. Yes I can get tickets to a show and resell them if that is what you mean but as far as dinner reservations and rooms it would be a logistical nightmare to even bother.

[mmcd]

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One thing you may be missing is that table comps cannot be turned into cash like slot points can (with very very rare exceptions such as travel reimbursement or being a whale with a % of your losses returned).

[/ QUOTE ]

Comp points can be bought and sold among players at some casinos. I doubt casinos endorse this sort of thing as policy, but it can and does happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you understand the difference between slot earned comps and table game comps. Yes I can get tickets to a show and resell them if that is what you mean but as far as dinner reservations and rooms it would be a logistical nightmare to even bother.

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I don't know if it's different at a lot of casinos, but at FW, if I sit down and play blackjack for a couple of hours, They'll give me $200 on my Wampum card. (I'm pretty sure with blackjack, they'll give you 1x your average bet per hour of play. The points I get can't be directly converted into cash, but they spend the same as cash at hotels/restaurants/stores/etc. within the casino. If I can sell these points to another player for cash at something like 65 cents on the dollar, that is how would make money at this. I guess it comes down to whether we could blend in with other players (obv. we'd have to play in a high-limit room with lots of money on the table), and whether the pit boss would just comp us according to whatever their typical formula is.

[playersare]

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at FW, if I sit down and play blackjack for a couple of hours, They'll give me $200 on my Wampum card. (I'm pretty sure with blackjack, they'll give you 1x your average bet per hour of play.

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you're estimation is way off in my FW experience. they use the same formula as most any casino that rates table games, which is about 20% of your average bet per hour. if you flat bet 60 hands dealt per hour, you lose approximately 0.3 units at a house edge of 0.5%, so giving back 0.2 units in soft comp (points vs. "hard" cash) is the most they can feasibly offer in return. unless you can fool the floorperson or they make a clerical error when you color in, there is no way you are getting 1 full bet unit per hour in soft comp there, or any other casino.

flat bet comps in BJ and craps (passline/don't) are roughly the same, though you might get a little extra in dice for play the prop bets (with the proportional loss in actual EV).

[Terry]

Your career will be very short. Some casinos might comp you once.

In my years as a dice pit boss I never comped any of the Do and Don't teams, not even the first time, not even a buffet ... nor did any of the bosses with whom I ever worked.

[SheetWise]

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Your career will be very short. Some casinos might comp you once.

In my years as a dice pit boss I never comped any of the Do and Don't teams, not even the first time, not even a buffet ... nor did any of the bosses with whom I ever worked.

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That's a common attitude -- and the only reason OP shouldn't be too obvious. Personally, I always advised treating them the same as any other player. It's the casino that benefits from the reduced variance -- not the player.

[SamIAm]

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Your career will be very short. Some casinos might comp you once.

In my years as a dice pit boss I never comped any of the Do and Don't teams, not even the first time, not even a buffet ... nor did any of the bosses with whom I ever worked.

[/ QUOTE ]As Sheetwise said, why does the house care whether they're a Do & Don't team or a Do & Do team? The expected value is the same.

So the player is minimizing their variance; what do you care? Comp them 1/3 their expected loss regardless.
-Sam

P.S. Similarly, you shouldn't be fooled by full odds vs no odds.