STOP SAYING you are raising or betting for information!

[gobboboy]

You are either valuebetting or you're bluffing. You can bluff with marginal hands to avoid being bluffed out and you can valuebet but fold to a raise, but for the love of god, betting for information makes NO LOGICAL SENSE. If you're out of position and you bet or check, your opponent is going to have to make some sort of action no matter what, so THAT is where you get your information from. If you're ahead of your opponent's range and think their calling range is beat by your hand, then BET FOR VALUE. If not, then check or bet to bluff them out.

EVERY BET you make should have a purpose. Either to get value out of a strong hand or bluff your opponent off a stronger hand. KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH EACH BET YOU MAKE BEFORE YOU MAKE IT.

Example:

Stacks of 10k, blinds 50/100. I make it 300 from UTG 9 handed, you call OTB with 99. Flop Q76. I bet 450. You decide to raise. Why?

1) A raise for value does not accomplish what you think unless we're thinking on the hundredth level. I'm folding all hands worse than yours and calling with a lot of better ones.

2) A bluff raise wouldn't be too bad, since I'm folding most hands worse than AQ or 98, but if I call or raise your hand is pretty much garbage.

SO MANY PEOPLE decide to put in a raise on this flop 'for information' to see if their hand is good. WHY? If he folds, whoopee, you might have had the best hand. If he calls, you don't. That's called BLUFFING. You might as well have any two cards in this spot if you are attempting to bluff. A lot of people might say "Yeah but sometimes you improve/get called by worse!" Yeah but sometimes you are retarded and manage to put in more money later against a hand that obviously has you beat too. If you make it 1600 on the flop, you just put in enough chips to call the flop AND turn if you really think I'm FOS, and then I would give you a lot more chances to really look at my bet sizing and one more card to come off before you decide if I actually have a hand.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IF YOU WANT ME TO KEEP MY SANITY STOP MAKING RETARDED BLUFFS WITHOUT REALIZE YOU ARE DOING SO.

[stealthmunk]

You are not 100% right here gobbo, but you are right in that most people have no clue why they are raising/folding and just basically randomly click buttons.

[mastr]

<3 but shhhhhhhhhhhhh

[ASPoker8]

"Raise to find out where you are at"

tilts me so hard

[NYWalker]

[ QUOTE ]
"Raise to find out where you are at"


[/ QUOTE ]

some players (even good players) go from "raise to find out where we are at" to pot committed, to being forced to make bad bluff with marginal hand. This is so true when such "raise to find out information" move runs into "bet for value" of a better hand.

[djk123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Raise to find out where you are at"


[/ QUOTE ]

some players (even good players) go from "raise to find out where we are at" to pot committed, to being forced to make bad bluff with marginal hand. This is so true when such "raise to find out information" move runs into "bet for value" of a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

NYwalker, no offense or anything, but based on your posts you are one of the worst when it comes to 'raising for information." The most recent example being the AK hand.

[baltostar]

Value or bluff is too simplistic.

What about pot control bets, sometimes known as blocking bets, especially on the river? How is that either a value bet or a bluff?

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually think a c-bet when you miss is a bet in which you have no idea if it is for value or as a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a copout. Your opponent has a preflop calling range, and the flop texture makes him likely to fold a certain piece of that range to the bet, call without another piece, and raise with a third piece.

You decide to cbet based on how your hand compares with those pieces, and for the most part (insofar as any pre-river bet can be classified a value bet or a bluff, rather than varying degrees of semibluff), your cbet isn't a two-way bet. When it's a good bet, it usually is so because it falls into one of three categories

- folding better hands*
- getting called by worse hands
- preventing bluffs (that you can't call) from worse hands.


If it's none of these, it's a bad bet. If you aren't sure which one it is, or which one is dominant, you're being sloppy.

*including situations where most of the bluff value comes from setting up a profitable two barrel rather than getting an immediate fold.

[NYWalker]

[ QUOTE ]

NYwalker, no offense or anything, but based on your posts you are one of the worst when it comes to 'raising for information." The most recent example being the AK hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's not get gobbo's thread going into sideline. I've explained my thought of that hand in details in my main thread. I don't treat this as offense. Let's move on on this thread.

[adanthar]

kinda skimmed thread

[ QUOTE ]
"Raise to find out where you are at"

tilts me so hard

[/ QUOTE ]