Is this PF good/bad?

Qwijibo · #1 08-24-2006, 03:23 PM

4/8 at Ventura last night. It's a full killpot hand.

Table is typical 4/8: pretty loose, average aggression.

SB is the kill. Two or three calls around the table, I'm OTB with J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Guy in the killpot to my left seems passive enough to check his live kill most of the time. Is this hand playable here? I ended up calling, hitting a flush draw and chasing it down. Not taking results into consideration, I'm wondering if my PF call was good.

Hobbs. · #2 08-24-2006, 03:33 PM

As long as everybody sucks, I'd call.

naMruM · #3 08-24-2006, 03:57 PM

I don't think it matters if it was full or half kill, at least I was trying to convince myself of that.

I think it's a fold with two bad limpers, a very marginal call with 3 bad limpers and a passive killer, and a profitable call with a 4th bad limper in front of you. One pretty decent limper in here and I flee like Bambi from the hunters. The distinction between 2, 3 and 4 comes down to implied odds. If the killer were at all aggro, you have to fold it even with 4 in, you won't get the right implied odds to play it.

Dazarath · #4 08-25-2006, 07:28 PM

Well, if you're going to flop a flush draw and miss the flush, obviously fold preflop (har har). Jokes aside, I would fold. With a kill pot, your implied odds are cut down, and in a regular pot, I would've folded anyways, but that's just me.

freedom18 · #5 08-25-2006, 07:56 PM

yes its a call but i hate kill pots ^^ so id fold

phosix · #6 08-25-2006, 09:32 PM

deffinite fold, what is a kill pot???

alul · #7 08-25-2006, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a fold with two bad limpers, a very marginal call with 3 bad limpers and a passive killer, and a profitable call with a 4th bad limper in front of you. One pretty decent limper in here and I flee like Bambi from the hunters. The distinction between 2, 3 and 4 comes down to implied odds. If the killer were at all aggro, you have to fold it even with 4 in, you won't get the right implied odds to play it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just wondering how did you come to these numbers. Did you do any calculations or something?

Hobbs. · #8 08-26-2006, 02:17 AM

imo, this is a situation where your winrate is n't going to affected very much eitherway so do whatever is more fun...

naMruM · #9 08-26-2006, 06:02 AM

Actually, yes, there's a little math. And the kill doesn't matter since for the purposes of this hand, calling the kill is calling a small bet.

The chances of flopping a flush or a 4 card flush draw are about the same as flopping a set from a pair. I'm assuming you need to hit your flush to win, but maybe you catch two pair or a funky straight, whatever. A flush is less disguised than a set, and if the third flush card comes, you'll maybe get less action (unless someone has a nut flush in which case you'll get action you don't want). You also have to put in a turn bet if you pick up your draw, so you need better implied odds to play the J7s than you would to play 22 in the same spot. You don't have the nut, so your flush might be no good, but you might flop a gutter along with your flush draw so let's just say for now that it's close enough to think of the hand like a moderately less valuable small pair.

With 3 weak limpers and with a pretty key assumption that the killer checks, you're getting 4 to 1 on your immediate call but you act last on the flop, and by the time you have to call a bet on the flop, you'll be getting better than that 4 to 1. You want a reasonable shot of getting 6 or 7 to 1 or so on the flop in order to justify the preflop call. That means a bet and a call or two out of the 4 villains ahead of you on the flop. That's a marginal assumption, but your opponents are weak, so you want to get involved.

I just ran it with PokerStove assuming loose calling standards (VPIP 23%) for your limpers and a random distro for your killer. You're at pretty much 20% equity preflop, so by that line, it's an easy call. The same scenario with just one or two tight limpers kills your equity. It's very very important that the limpers are bad players with loose preflop standards.

Oh and I do all that thinking at the table. Yeah right ;-)

Allday Everyday · #10 08-26-2006, 03:21 AM

For what it's worth, I completely agree with Dazarath here.

I think it should be folded PF in a standard 4/8 game, but the fact that it is a kill pot makes it more important to fold. There are less implied odds available in kill pots. And you'll need excellent implied odds in this situation.

Pity you didn't get a chance to steal with the J7s. I love stealing in kill pots.