Yay slick early in BB with 4 limps; now the sb is raising

[dray]

I'm sorry for not converting this but I tried using FTR and it woulndn't show the sb's raise amount, so I'm just posting this as is.

This is the 9th hand in. With all the limps in front do I just call and take a flop? If I'm raising how much and can I still get away from it preflop if sb comes back over top? (depending on the raise amount) What about shoving? It is a knockout tourney...

Full Tilt Poker Game #4047468202: $5 + $0.50 Knockout (30724323), Table 65 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:08:56 ET - 2007/11/02
Seat 1: phantasm84 (1,710)
Seat 2: Dray (1,365)
Seat 3: NUGolf (3,505)
Seat 4: mbh1967 (1,530)
Seat 5: Galloson (1,430)
Seat 7: Luschi4590 (1,395)
Seat 8: tsdm (1,170)
Seat 9: ugafan8898 (1,395)
phantasm84 posts the small blind of 15
Dray posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Dray [Kc Ad]
NUGolf calls 30
mbh1967 folds
Galloson calls 30
Luschi4590 folds
tsdm calls 30
ugafan8898 calls 30
phantasm84 raises to 210
Dray has 15 seconds left to act

[adMIT defeat]

I think shove is standard.

[Frank Zappy]

Two choice: Raise to 600-800 or shove with shoving way out in front. Calling is just dead wrong.

[sapsuckah]

Uh, Frank? You're suggesting that Dray raise 600-800 of his 1365 chips?

Dray - never, ever do this.

Pushing here is fine. If you had a read that one of the limpers might shove over the SB raise and a BB call, then calling isn't terrible... but there's no way you'll have that good a read on anyone this early.

[dray]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, Frank? You're suggesting that Dray raise 600-800 of his 1365 chips?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah see that's my dilemma is any decent raise is going to committ me to the pot anyway. But shoving AKo pre so early is just so not my TAG style...

[sapsuckah]

Shoving AK here, early or not, should be *exactly* your TAG style. TAG play relies on picking good, solid +EV spots and playing them aggressively. Doesn't always mean pushing, obviously, but in this case you're ahead of SB's range, there's an overlay on the table (so you're getting a good price even if SB calls with a pair), and any raise commits you... so a push here is standard and has nothing to do with whether you're TAG.

If he has KK, you're still 30% to win. Only if he has exactly AA are you screwed.

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
But shoving AKo pre so early is just so not my TAG style...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what you mean by early. If you are talking about the number of BBs you have, then I think you meant "deep" instead of "early".

Regardless, I remember reading the math for a play like this. I can't remember the book or the author but it essentially stated that if the amount of chips in the pot is 1/5 or greater than your stack, you should move in with AK. It is not an overbet, it is a solid TAG play using a good starting hand and fold equity. Increasing your stack by 1/5 or more without a fight is good any time in a tourney and getting all-in with a premium hand is also good.

This advice isn't related to either early or deep, it's related to the stack to pot size ratio which is really important for a NL player. I think a shove is a very reasonable play, if not the absolute best play.

[Frank Zappy]

I know how to count and that is what I was suggesting.

What's SB going to do, call? He'll push all in and it's an easy call for us; I'm not looking to Fold, I'm looking to call a Push.

[sapsuckah]

This is a really backward concept Frank. I'm not trying to be an [censored] here, but you really are looking at things the wrong way if you think there's EVER a situation where you should be raising half your stack and not pushing.

But let's look at your concept for a sec. Let's say you raise to 600, leaving 750ish behind. Limpers fold and SB flat-calls (you're giving him better than 2:1 odds, after all, so he can justify a call with anything he would have raised with).

Now the flop comes T-7-6. SB pushes.

You're now screwed and have lost nearly half your stack in the process.