TPTK facing donk bet on turn when flush card hits

Lunkan · #1 09-20-2006, 07:39 AM

Both opponents are fish with something like >30/<5/<1 stats. I think at the time this hand was played I did not have these reads on them but I think MP1 looked a bit fishy already.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

My plan was to fold on turn if it was raised by MP1.

Dastone · #2 09-20-2006, 07:53 AM

Raise preflop.

Post flop:

I don't like it, but if I had not raised preflop and was in this situation, I think I would have played the same.

Unfortunately I think were beat here a large amount of the time.

I think if you decide to get out, fold the turn, or else you have to call down with that river.

knockonwood · #3 09-20-2006, 07:56 AM

I don't see any problems here.

jrz1972 · #4 09-20-2006, 07:58 AM

Looks fine to me.

CrMenace · #5 09-20-2006, 07:59 AM

Raise preflop, otherwise nh.

Smoke em' · #6 09-20-2006, 08:01 AM

You need to raise this preflop. AJ is a really good hand against a bunch of random hands and you need to exploit this edge. If you raised preflop and the action went the same, you'd probably be stuck in the pot on the turn. As is if you have a reliable read that the bettor is extremely passive I think it's safe to throw away. If there is any doubt in your mind about how passive he is, call down.

Your post-flop play seems ok given that you didn't have any decent reads yet but the whole situation may have been different if you had raised preflop.

knockonwood · #7 09-20-2006, 08:08 AM

Looking at the hand again, yes raise PF. I play the rest the same. Though, raising PF obviously changes the way the hand is going to be played out...

Sushiglutton · #8 09-20-2006, 08:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Looking at the hand again, yes raise PF. I play the rest the same. Though, raising PF obviously changes the way the hand is going to be played out...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why everyone is so sure raising pf is better than limping. Doesn't that depend on the table? I think raising and limping are very close plays.

Smoke em' · #9 09-20-2006, 08:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why everyone is so sure raising pf is better than limping. Doesn't that depend on the table? I think raising and limping are very close plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's important to raise this preflop because you want to minimize the number of players in the hand to maximize the chances of winning with top pair, to try to isolate the bad players who cold call preflop raises with crap, and to fold some slightly worse hands that you really don't want to be playing against.

For example, KQ
Hand 1: 58.9022 % 58.67% 00.24% { AcJs }
Hand 2: 41.0978 % 40.86% 00.24% { KQs, KQo }

I don't want your KQ against my AJ, I'm only a slight favorite and KQ might actually be right to call preflop even if they knew you had AJ.

Raising this encourages your opponents to make a mistake, whether it be cold calling or folding a hand that should call.

jrz1972 · #10 09-20-2006, 08:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why everyone is so sure raising pf is better than limping. Doesn't that depend on the table? I think raising and limping are very close plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

This topic comes up all the time.

Most veterans are raising this, and some would argue that folding is preferable to limping. The basic idea is that AJo is a "top pair" hand that wins mainly by pairing up on the flop. Those sorts of hands don't do well in multiway pots, but open-limping encourages multiway action. Rather, it's better to raise and to play against as few opponents as possible.

If the table is so loose that people are routinely coldcalling with trash, then you can raise UTG for value.

That said, you're right that it's not that big a mistake.