98s - MP+FD Donked Into By Unlikely Flop Checkraiser

SixForty · #1 08-16-2006, 06:19 PM

This opponent was for the most part reliably predictable. But this hand he wasn't. So I wasn't quite sure where I stood!

Live 10/20 - loose/semi-aggressive game, usually 4-6 to a flop, and about 50% of flops are getting raised, 4 of my 9 opponents I would say are above average, with no real donators - it was a tougher table than I'm used to!

Reads:

UTG+1 - semi-tight/average aggression, they type of player you would expect from someone who has read a beginners only book on poker (something like WLLH, but not SSHE [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )
MP1 - LAG, usually raises a lot of pots when he enters preflop, and is generally a raise or fold type on the flop and turn, but plays pretty well post flop
SB - very loose/mostly passive, I've played with him maybe 7 or 8 times, he's mostly a calling station, plays any two suited or connected preflop, chases backdoor draws, calls down with any pair often, will bet good hands if checked to (including things like middle pair) and will raise really strong hands (like a set, straight or flush), but if he bets TPTK and gets raised, he'll usually just call along. Occasionally does some odd things like check/calls the flop, check/calls the turn, then folds first in on the river when he obviously missed his draw, not even waiting to see if the other player bets! In all my time playing with him, I have never seen him checkraise before until this night. He did it once before this hand, out of the big blind, check-raised a Button preflop raiser on the flop to get it heads up, then bet the turn, then check/folded the river even though neither of the big streets really brought anything scary (ie, no flush or straight cards, and no overcards to the top flop card) So I have no idea what he checkraised with that hand, and as I said, it was the only time I had ever seen him checkraise.
BB - unknown, realtively new to the table, nothing significant noticed yet

Hero's Image - Hero is known to pump draws a fair bit on the flop. Hero is known to raise and 3bet light in position heads up or against multiple opponents, sometimes only with a draw, sometimes with as little as bottom pair! Hero has shown down a couple of bluffed busted draws earlier this session. I think Villain probably views me as a good player, and that I may be quite tricky at times in his eyes.

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: (5 players, 5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, SB raises, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero 3bets, SB calls

Turn: (2 players, 5.5 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB bets, Hero . . . ?

I was quite confused by his checkraise, and really couldn't put him on a hand after that. And then when he donked into me on the turn, I was totally caught off guard. With my equity from the monster draw, anyone raise this and take a free showdown UI? Or is this a better spot to just call here and then call the river UI?

Edited to add Hero's Table Image, as it may affect the opinion on Villain's hand range

BenA · #2 08-16-2006, 06:36 PM

If he is as loose passive as you say, either he is just pulling some new move he picked up, or he's probably got a set or less likely, 2 pair or AK. It would be really wierd to check-raise the flop here with a FD or SD. Maybe AK with A spades. Would he just complete in SB with a premium hand like that?

Even if you knew he had a set, you still have 12 outs (trip and 2 pair outs no good). I probably call and see a river. He's telling you he can beat your nines. If he has top pair, you've got 17 outs, if 2 pair (not including nine), you've got 14. The worst case scenario isn't so bad, I want to see a river and if its good, a showdown. Maybe this is too weak, but I don't want to raise turn for fear of being 3-bet, plus even if he calls, being behind. I suppose there's an outside chance of getting a free showdown, but UI, you probably aren't winning. Against 1 opponent with 1 card to come, even 17 outs (I doubt you are currently ahead) puts you behind in equity. I'm not sure value is a good reason to raise in this spot.

Gazzbut · #3 08-16-2006, 06:36 PM

I would juat call here. Given your read it doesnt sound likely that he has a hand you beat.

If you dont improve on the river id be tempted to save a bet against this player...is that too weak?

BenA · #4 08-16-2006, 06:42 PM

Oh yeah, and I fold the river UI. If you just call the turn, you'd be getting about 8:1. That's not good enough, IMO, to call with 9s against a normally passive player giving you a ton of aggression. A tricky player in a slightly bigger pot maybe, because there's a much greater chance he just decided to push the pot around with the nut flush draw, but even then I expect to lose.

SixForty · #5 08-16-2006, 08:44 PM

I don't think that folding the river UI is an option against this guy.

Like I said before, the only checkraise I've ever seen this guy do (I have have played many hours with him) was earlier in that session, with a hand that he mucked the river with, so I can only assume that he didn't even have top pair when he did it.

So I don't really think I can give him credit for a better hand than me often enough to not go to showdown with middle pair here.

BenA · #6 08-16-2006, 10:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that folding the river UI is an option against this guy.

Like I said before, the only checkraise I've ever seen this guy do (I have have played many hours with him) was earlier in that session, with a hand that he mucked the river with, so I can only assume that he didn't even have top pair when he did it.

So I don't really think I can give him credit for a better hand than me often enough to not go to showdown with middle pair here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I guess I ignored this part of the read, so it may be justifiable. I still don't like raising the turn, though.

doubledummy · #7 08-16-2006, 10:39 PM

If the turn didn't help I may have gone away (unlikely) but I am definately calling the river now, if only to get some extra info.

What would he do with a huge draw like JTs open ended Str8 and flush draws. He might think he has 15 outs and be looking for a strange way to get to river at a "fair price" plus giving him the chance of not needing to hit as you may fold to the aggression.

If he normally bets his big hands and check calls his weaker draws then either he has the nut flush draw linked with some str8 outs or JTs as he didn't bet or re-raise. Otherwise he may have just hit the wrong button first and be trying to catch up - it does happen. However in his spot I'm jamming the flop with AQ-AJs and JTs so why raise but not re-raise?

Either way if you feel your playing him a lot the extra info will be useful so call him down and remember for next time.

Little_blue · #8 08-16-2006, 11:46 PM

By your decription in this pot he has 3 7's if not he is going to k the river so just call hope for a spade and k or fold the river...unless he has some reason to go off kilt, kr and Stop Go by this type of player is a big hand realieved that no spade hit the turn...

ontiltsoon · #9 08-17-2006, 04:22 AM

I would just call the turn, and call the river UI (Given your read and coments)

James. · #10 08-17-2006, 08:34 AM

hey sierra,

if i thought he would fold to a raise a decent amount of the time(and it doesn't have to be that much), i may pop the turn checking the river UI(if we were going to call a river bet anyway). thing is his MO is to get goofy and check/fold on the end and you may be missing that opportunity to fold out a better hand if you don't fire the river(but you often have the best hand anyway in that scenario and this way you get the bet called while he's drawing also, not just when he has a better hand on the end). i guess i may still bet that river about half the time if i did raise the turn and get called.