A Tiger, a LAG and a fish walk into a bar

Scary_Tiger · #1 02-03-2007, 10:24 AM

UTG is 52/25/2.82 over 180 hands five handed. I've only been at table with MP this orbit, but he's already shown his retardedness last hand. He open limps in CO, I raise AQo, flop AQ4fd, he c/c, turn 8f he c/c, river Jf, I check behind, his 86s not even a backdoor flush draw is no good.

PokerStars 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, MP calls, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG caps, MP calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, MP calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, MP calls, Hero calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP checks, Hero ???

3-bet turn? Bet/call river? Bet/fold river? Check behind?

Guruman · #2 02-03-2007, 10:38 AM

mp has done nothing but call bets the whole way down. What a weird way for a lag to play.

This makes me think threebetting the turn is good, as lag will very often have one pair that he's trying to play WA/WB vs the fish with, or he's got a stubborn flush draw that may also be gutshotted or somesuch. A monster from him would have woken up by then.

We still have to worry about AA, QQ, and AQ from the fish, but he can clearly have lots of worse 1 pair hands as well.

As played I check behind the river, even vs the fish.

Heisenb3rg · #3 02-03-2007, 10:56 AM

The problem with this hand is we are trying read hands of players who are more or less imposible to pin down a narrow range of holdings.

Im not too worried about the fish having a better hand given your hand example.
Im more worried about the LAG in the hand. How much of a spazz is he? How much do you respect his PF cap?
You need to provide a better read to properly analyze the best play here. If you don't have a better read, I suggest trying to pay more attention to LAG's tendencies, they're in so often that it shouldn't be so hard to do. If you don't becuase your multitabling too many tables, just accept this as one of the tradeoffs and know that you will miss value against them.

Without a solid read I would respect the LAG's c/r on the turn simply because he capped PF. I would still assign a fairly tight capping range in a 3way pot unless I saw something which indicated the contrary. I would not put any extra bets in on the turn. AA,AK,AQ,QQ is a very real possiblity.
I would expect the fish to have SOMETIHNG, wheter that be a queen, an ace or a flush draw. So here he could be padding the pot , or sucking up equity...

On the river, when LAG checks again, and no draws completed... I would be somewhat inclined to bet, but it's really marginal and could even be a mistake. The fish CC'ing may have scared him tryin to make a play for whatever reason. He could be trying to C/R again, but it's a really really stupid play, so i'll assume mildly rational play. The fish also provides a nice padding on your bet.
Had the fish not been in I would definitly check behind (it's different than on the turn because now he probabily has 0% equity vs some equity)
Again something you would like a read on.
Don't bet/fold though, bet/call..

sharpie · #4 02-03-2007, 10:44 AM

I would play the turn the same. Once he checks the river it looks like something that maybe was giving up on the turn, but then decided to bluff check/raise. Would he risk the river checking through with a monster? Even if his check/raise works he might only get the same amount of bets as he would've if he just lead. Then again he is retarded and might just be playing tricky for the sake of it.

When I'm confused I tend to value bet, and I'd call a raise.

MacGuyV · #5 02-03-2007, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would play the turn the same. Once he checks the river it looks like something that maybe was giving up on the turn, but then decided to bluff check/raise. Would he risk the river checking through with a monster? Even if his check/raise works he might only get the same amount of bets as he would've if he just lead. Then again he is retarded and might just be playing tricky for the sake of it.

When I'm confused I tend to value bet, and I'd call a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup

Kwaz · #6 02-04-2007, 06:19 AM

I think the guaranteed information value of seeing his hand, ranks checking behind above all other options.

ILOVEPOKER929 · #7 02-04-2007, 12:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the guaranteed information value of seeing his hand, ranks checking behind above all other options.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the superfish in the pot, this statement simply cannot be true. Besides Kwaz, I know youre a good enough player to understand that if the UTG folds to this river bet, that means he check/raised the turn with BS so you'll get the information you covet one way or another.

Kwaz · #8 02-04-2007, 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the guaranteed information value of seeing his hand, ranks checking behind above all other options.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the superfish in the pot, this statement simply cannot be true. Besides Kwaz, I know youre a good enough player to understand that if the UTG folds to this river bet, that means he check/raised the turn with BS so you'll get the information you covet one way or another.

[/ QUOTE ]

When this villian checks the river, he's check/folding or check/raising. You are losing value against him ALWAYS.
You have to make that value up from superfish ALWAYS.
I'm not going to dish up some incredibley speculative* figures that have only been invented to substantiate my argument (which I could easily do). I'll let you do that in your own time and make yourself feel better about your decision (just as I have done).

I quite obviously value the informational difference [between knowing his hand is BS and actually knowing his hand] a lot more. Maybe to a fault..

* Considering, so called 'superfish' is one orbit old.

TheHip41 · #9 02-03-2007, 01:55 PM

i like the turn bet, and once he c/r, I really hate my hand, but the pot is big, and he's retarded.

On the river, once they both check, I can not, not bet here, so I bet, if he c/r again, i probalby should fold, but I will probably call to see QQ [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

the problem is, if he's a good lag, he knows you have AK on that flop, so when he c/r the turn anyway, it's like our hand is turned over.

that being said, he could just be retarded with AT because he turned the nuts

timoK · #10 02-03-2007, 02:33 PM

Heisenb3rg said it all
nothing to add for me.

"Don't bet/fold though, bet/call.." !