10/20 - KK - semi-bluffing top set

Heisenb3rg · #1 09-06-2007, 06:55 AM

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets
planning to check the river UI or fold river UI if bet into...

Player is tricky Lag..

Do I have enough fold equity here to justify the investment?
Not just folding hearts but his air?

Any value in making him spew on the river if he does happen to have A hearts and he caps me on the turn, then the baord pairs?

Also, in an optimal strategy, what kind of hand would be best for bluff raising here some % of the time? I thought "KK" at the time, but maybe this is wrong and I just justified a spew?

milesdyson · #2 09-06-2007, 06:58 AM

honestly when he checks the turn after checkraising the flop i put him on a stronger range than if he had just bet the turn, which he should do with plenty of flopped semibluffs turned pure bluffs (QT Q9 T9 97 76).

i would not raise the turn vs. a bet on this card, so i am no raising his turn checkraise.

Heisenb3rg · #3 09-06-2007, 07:03 AM

I wouldnt raise his turn bet either...
It was more that his line looks so strong, yet I dont care, so ironically thought I had more fold equity..

His range is very heavily weighted towards flushes after a c/r and he should know that I know that

milesdyson · #4 09-06-2007, 07:09 AM

but you said in your OP "Not just folding hearts but his air?"

which imo is a good question. because he isn't folding a heart. so he can know that you should know that he should know what he should know, and at the end of the day, he's gonna say "oh well let's see those nuts."

Flintoff · #5 09-06-2007, 07:42 AM

I quite like the line. But I dont do it!

vmacosta · #6 09-06-2007, 12:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but you said in your OP "Not just folding hearts but his air?"

which imo is a good question. because he isn't folding a heart. so he can know that you should know that he should know what he should know, and at the end of the day, he's gonna say "oh well let's see those nuts."

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. However, if we think his air includes lots of straight draws AND his line is so FOS that air makes up a big part of his range then I like a 3-bet anyhow.

Still wouldn't have put in the first bet though.

ILOVEPOKER929 · #7 09-06-2007, 10:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt raise his turn bet either...
It was more that his line looks so strong, yet I dont care, so ironically thought I had more fold equity..

His range is very heavily weighted towards flushes after a c/r and he should know that I know that

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you forget how to play poker? Youre assuming someone should know that you know something? This isnt Theory of Poker. This is real life poker. Youre not playing your best friend HU, youre playing some tricky lag online who doesnt care who you are let alone what you think. 99% of the time you go beyond the 3rd level online or in live play, you'll simply be leveling yourself and thats just a needless waste of your hard-earned money.

Heisenb3rg · #8 09-06-2007, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Did you forget how to play poker? Youre assuming someone should know that you know something? This isnt Theory of Poker. This is real life poker. Youre not playing your best friend HU, youre playing some tricky lag online who doesnt care who you are let alone what you think. 99% of the time you go beyond the 3rd level online or in live play, you'll simply be leveling yourself and thats just a needless waste of your hard-earned money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I forgot how to play poker [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I think this is what I needed to hear..
-200BB in 2 days and im playing terrible.. WAY too spewy and overagrsesive.

I find it funny you said "this isnt theory of poker" because in the moment I actually had a flash back to theory of poker where they recommended you can raise on boards like this and fold to a 3-bet since the only hand someone can re-raise you with is the nuts.

Ive taken somewhat similar lines as villain before with high, but non nut flushes and folded to a 3-bet against nitty players..

Thing was, my image was terrible at the time and he's probaibly not capable of the laydown.. My thought that I could fold out a high heart non ace is probabily LOL, which is crucial to the equation.

Do I win style points at least? I thought the idea was sexy, even tho it was wrong [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

He had QhQd, river obviously didnt pair, and he scooped the pot.

Heisenb3rg · #9 09-06-2007, 04:29 PM

BTW I prefer to wait to the turn with non heart overpairs here on avg.
I can push a much bigger equity edge on the turn with KK. I dont realy have to worry about a heart killing my action, because if it hits im in such rough shape that I want my action killed.. and dont want initiative in a bigger pot.

I still fast play flops like this a ton tho, 3-betting range is normally high flush draws, made flushes, 2pr+, top pair + flush draw.

ILOVEPOKER929 · #10 09-06-2007, 10:12 AM

3bet the flop. Given that you just called and the villain checked, check the turn also. Given that you bet the turn, dont 3bet. Hes never folding a better hand and you could get capped. Instead of 3betting the turn save that bet for a crying call on the river. I hate the way this hand was played.

Your quote:

"Also, in an optimal strategy, what kind of hand would be best for bluff raising here some % of the time? I thought "KK" at the time, but maybe this is wrong and I just justified a spew?"

Why are you even thinking about this? I am aghast at such a flagrant misuse of mental energy. First of all, you didnt bluffraise the turn, you bluff-3bet the turn. There is no optimal hand to bluff-3bet with in this spot. It should never be down. Bluffraising this turn is different: Im sure there are some spots where you can raise the turn against certain opponents that love to bet/fold, but you should never bluffraise the turn with a hand that must call a 3bet like your KK. If you make this play, you should have a hand that is drawing dead once 3bet.