Origin of Life and Evolution

[John21]

Granting the scientific definition of evolution, that it is simply a process of survivial with no goal or objective, can we factor out the physical elements that make up the various forms of life and conclude that - the primary attribute of life is survivial?

If the above definition of life holds true, wouldn't it follow that in order to have a will(?) to survive, an entity must first have some sense of identity or self?

Wouldn't we have to find an element of 'beingness' that is not found in non-organic matter? Which simply adheres to natural laws and gives no evidence of a will to survive.

Main question: Is some form of identity, beingness, self-awareness, etc... a prerequisite for the will to survive?

[FortunaMaximus]

Getting out of a gravity well might take that specific trigger point in evolution, the ability to individualize and form a cohesive group plan to take to the stars.

Perhaps not. But the evidence would seem to indicate that it does. In a biosphere, you're simply not going to evolve the ability to breathe oxygen in a vacuum 'cause there is no vacuum on Earth.

Just Hoovers and lovers.

[luckyme]

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Main question: Is some form of identity, beingness, self-awareness, etc... a prerequisite for the will to survive?

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Perhaps we need to confirm there is a will to survive because we delve into the prerequisites. It can't be anything major because so many life forms take actions that are contrary to it.

luckyme

[bunny]

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Wouldn't we have to find an element of 'beingness' that is not found in non-organic matter? Which simply adheres to natural laws and gives no evidence of a will to survive.

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That element could well arise from complicated arrangements of non-organic matter. The concepts of solid, liquid, gas is meaningless at the quantum level - only by considering lots of particles together do the bigger concepts emerge. This element may well be the same, something which emerges from suitably constituted arrangements of physical building blocks.

[John21]

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Wouldn't we have to find an element of 'beingness' that is not found in non-organic matter? Which simply adheres to natural laws and gives no evidence of a will to survive.

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That element could well arise from complicated arrangements of non-organic matter. The concepts of solid, liquid, gas is meaningless at the quantum level - only by considering lots of particles together do the bigger concepts emerge. This element may well be the same, something which emerges from suitably constituted arrangements of physical building blocks.

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So whether it was a certain arrangement or we found some missing catalyst, would it be too much of a leap to conclude that something akin to our own feeling of consciousness or awareness of being resulted from this?

[madnak]

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So whether it was a certain arrangement or we found some missing catalyst, would it be too much of a leap to conclude that something akin to our own feeling of consciousness or awareness of being resulted from this?

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It's not a huge leap, but it doesn't follow from your assumptions. It's an interesting speculation, but you haven't provided any evidence for it.

[John21]

OK, I realize that "will to survive" and "sense of self" are subjective terms that cannot be verified, so if I rephrased the statements to say: all forms of life act as if they had a will to survive or act as if they had a sense of self, would that hold up?

Considering factors like metabolism and reproduction, is it safe to say that certain combinations of base elements act as if they have an identity and will?

So taking into consideration my original question,

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Main question: Is some form of identity, beingness, self-awareness, etc... a prerequisite for the will to survive?

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Wouldn't the creation/generation of an RNA or DNA strand, in essence, be the creation/generation of identity?

[Borodog]

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OK, I realize that "will to survive" and "sense of self" are subjective terms that cannot be verified, so if I rephrased the statements to say: all forms of life act as if they had a will to survive or act as if they had a sense of self, would that hold up?

Considering factors like metabolism and reproduction, is it safe to say that certain combinations of base elements act as if they have an identity and will?

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No. No more so than the fact that my TV is showing a football game implies that it has a will to show football games.

Replicators replicate becuase that's what replicators do, they replicate. It's a molecular machine (a very complex one, to be sure) that assembles copies of itself. It's every bit as much a physical machine as a car is, it just has a different function. Cars go zoom when you push this pedal and turn left and right when you turn this wheel thing and stop when you push that other pedal. Self-replicators make copies of themselves*.

*Of course, that's not actually what a good number of them do, which is still one of the greatest mysteries of evolution, i.e. the "Twofold Cost of Sex."

[madnak]

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OK, I realize that "will to survive" and "sense of self" are subjective terms that cannot be verified, so if I rephrased the statements to say: all forms of life act as if they had a will to survive or act as if they had a sense of self, would that hold up?

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No, the reason many forms of life "act as if" they have a will to survive is that those forms of life that act in such a way are generally more likely to survive, and thus they tend to propagate more.

[Borodog]

There is no need for a will to survive for something to survive. It just has to not die.