Weighty issue I feel powerless to handle (Longest Post Ever OMG)

[private joker]

This is an extremely difficult post for me to write, for several reasons. First of all, I rarely bring anything personal to 2+2 because I have other outlets for this type of conversation, and the forum is better for me as a casual conversation circle, not to mention focused poker strategy. Another reason is that it’s never been comfortable for me to get into personal/emotional stuff online – I’m generally a level-headed, often cynical-sounding moderator-type whose function has been to respond to, give advice on, and sometimes joke about threads like this… not start them.

But I think the members of EDF and 2+2 in general might be valuable in this situation because it’s specifically about a culture that many of you guys belong to and about which I don’t know a whole lot. More so, my role in this drama takes a big backseat – I’m just a supporting player and that makes me feel fairly helpless. All right, enough intro; this post is going to be long enough as it is.

I’m a white American Jew with a Chinese girlfriend. We’ve not been dating all that long yet, but it’s progressed far enough and fast enough that we think about the future beyond next weekend. We can talk about it because we’re definitely into each other. She was born in Shanghai to very strict, traditional Chinese parents, and moved to Los Angeles when she was 11. Now she’s fairly Americanized, speaks near-perfect English, and for the most part lives like any typical L.A. valley girl. She turned 27 a month ago.

Her parents aren’t just traditional – they are zealots. Well, her mother is. She’s a hardcore Catholic, goes to church all the time, and pretty much preaches every absolute fundamental cult-like belief you can think of. She makes Mel Gibson’s dad look like Woody Allen. Her father isn’t really too active with the family; he’s older (actually 81, closer to being like a grandfather than a dad; the reasons for him having my girlfriend at such an advanced age are another story I won’t get into), and he doesn’t really pay much attention to his wife and daughter.

So therefore Mom wants her daughter to marry a Catholic guy. And he’d better be Chinese too. But my girlfriend (I’ll call her “May” from here on in) isn’t interested in those ranges. She enjoys dating outside her culture – and is also not a fan of the Catholic church anymore, mostly since she reached the age of reason – and had the independence to pursue a relationship with me. Clearly if her mother knew May was dating a white Jewish guy (I’m not even religious at all; just Jewish by heritage), she would have a heart attack. But me, I’m just small potatoes compared to the real issue at hand now, and it’s a whopper.

Because of a few failed relationships May has had over the past few years, mom has decided that she’s a better person to determine May’s romantic future than May is. Enter Boss, a 50-year old millionaire who has befriended May’s family. He has paid for a cousin’s tuition. He has provided money and gifts for the parents and May’s grandmother. He’s an old rich man looking for a trophy wife. Perfect, in mom’s eyes, because now she has a great idea – marry her daughter off to this dude. Well, and by “marry her off” I mean prostitute her.

Of course, this terrifies May. She has no intention of being some trophy wife for sale, for basically being turned into a whore for some old loser. But she also has brainwashed in her the deeply steeped Chinese tradition of filial piety – an absolute devotion to her parents. In May’s mind, the daughter must always honor and obey her parents until the day they die. Even if your mom is a lunatic religious nut who wants to prostitute you? Sell you to the highest bidder? Yes, even then.

Even worse, mom decided that May should be married by the time she is 28. That’s 11 months away. So what does she do? Well, without really bothering to consult her daughter, she’s talked with the Boss’s mother about arranging the marriage. (May calls him “Boss” because she feels like she would be working for him). Naturally, this has put May into a panic – as it would any sane person who just discovered her family was whoring her out. She has never told the Boss she intends to marry him, but nevertheless since he got the okay from Mom, he bought a $150,000 ring that he hasn’t given to her yet. I mean I can’t blame the guy; May is an absolute knockout – not only hot, but she’s smart, lively, sharp and funny. But she likes me.

Now how do I fit into this? I really don’t; I mean, in some respects her relationship with me (obviously hidden to the family – something she’s been able to do despite spending 3-4 nights a week sleeping at my place for the past month) has put the pressure of this supposed arranged marriage to the forefront… without me, she has nothing to balance it out and would have nothing to stop her from sadly walking down the dark depths of fate to one of the most miserable existences I can imagine: being a prisoner to a passionless marriage, alone, and misunderstood by everyone who pretends to know her. But even if I wasn’t around, she still faces this struggle.

When I first heard this, I was like – what? This isn’t the 16th century. Grow some stones and tell mom to [censored] off. Welcome to 2007. Live your life. If May was some crazy chick like her mom, she wouldn’t even be worried. But she’s a thinking, feeling, reasonable woman and it’s scaring the crap out of her. If she refuses this marriage, she essentially abandons the family – she takes away all the gifts the Boss has given them. She is being “selfish” by only looking out for her own happiness and not that of her relatives. She insults two families at once. She’s a “bad person.” At least, she is all of these things in her mother’s eyes. And that guilt – thanks to Catholicism, ahh Catholicism – has been dutifully passed on to May. Entrenched. For 27 years.

That pretty much sums up the situation. I have a girlfriend who can’t sit her mom down and say, “Mom, you’re making me feel like a prostitute” because of her Chinese traditions. Yet on the other hand, I have a girlfriend who doesn’t want to be whored out to a wealthy old man. She doesn’t know what to do. And I don’t think I can help much. It isn’t even about me – it’s about her. Now if I didn’t care about her that much, and she was just a fling and a hot piece of tail, I’d say “wow baby that sucks, it’s been fun but I don’t think this has much of a future – good luck with your pimp mom.” But I do care about her. I’ve led a life of drama-free, innocuous, absolutely uneventful relationships for years… and this one is good enough for me to fight for or whatever it is. So I’m stuck in a spot where I want her to be happy… I want her to be free of this burden… and yet I can’t think of anything to say to her or anything to do.

So I guess I pose a question to EDF: for those of you who are Chinese, or who are familiar with Chinese families, is this really happening today? Are American families still arranging marriages like this, and are children really wired to obey their parents, even if those orders are completely abasing and destructive? Or did I just find the one completely wacked far-right version? It’s the kind of dilemma that’s making me lose sleep at night, simply because sometimes May cries herself to sleep thinking about the fate that lies ahead. She tries to talk herself into believing that if she does this, it would be fine – she would never feel “good again” (i.e. love, happiness, etc.) but she would also never face feeling bad again (heartbreak, abandonment, etc.). But just as she tries to convince herself that it might not be that bad, she comes to her senses and realizes that it would be that bad. Not only would she lose me, she would lose her freedom, her sense of self, and her future. Man, that makes me feel so sad for this girl.

I know it sounds like some melodramatic movie – it’s Romeo + Juliet meets Farewell My Concubine or something. How ridiculous. I agree, and I’ve never faced anything remotely this [censored] up and weird. It’s almost surreal. And I know some of you may be thinking “give it up, dude, she’s nuts, her family is nuts, and you need to find someone else.” I understand that sentiment, but unfortunately that doesn’t help because a) I don’t really want to leave her; we have too good a time together… and b) that wouldn’t solve her situation at all. The question isn’t whether or not I should stick with her – that’s beside the point. It’s how can I, if possible, help to prevent the imprisonment and selling out of a woman who doesn’t deserve to be abused by her family like this. She tells me she wants to break free, but she doesn’t have the courage to do it. And I’m the only person she has confided in about this.

I run bad at falling for women without serious family issues, I guess. Lil’ help?

[RERAISE5823]

The way I see it you have two options. 1. declare your intentions for this girl and step up and be her man, or 2. Allow May to deal with it how she sees fit. Don't get too attached until she's made her decision.

[CharlieDontSurf]

Get her a good therapist.

[Your Mom]

the way I see it, the ball is in May's court. She has to decide if she's going to let Mom run the show or not and make her choices accordingly, traditions and culture be damned. If she can't make this choice now at 27, then it's Forrest Gump time for you.

[Kimbell175113]

FWIW, I never thought "give it up, blah nuts blah someone else" while reading the post.

I guess I can't just can't understand that someone would ever actually go through with the marriage, though, in her spot, wow. If it were me I would obviously feel anguish, but if I hadn't figured a better way out by then, then at the 11th hour, just gotta go ahead and disappoint the mother + guy + tradition and too bad for them but maybe just maybe it takes something this horrible to get someone to leave behind that traditional subservience (and sure, we can't understand how bad it would be for a woman, especially from a different culture, but yeah) and in the end that would be a good thing?

Okay, maybe not, but it's a good thing you wrote this and I'm sure someone will show up with good counsel and discussion.

[PanchoVilla]

I wish I had a better serious answer for you, but all I can think of is.

vegas+drinks+drivethru chapel = her problem solved

it may create other problems, yes, but should solve that specific one.....

Good luck ever getting accepted by the rest of the family though. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[hicherbie]

This is not normal for most chinese families. and fwiw girls that have crazy mothers usually have a lot of crazy passed onto them. women in traditional asian cultures are supposed to be taken care of. thats what the crazy mother is trying to do. most likely, the girl knows that her mom is doing what she thinks is best for her. this makes it difficult to just tell her to f off.

in your post, you make it sound like the mom is crazy and the daughter is reasonable. i assure you that the daughter is less sane than you think.

gl with the problem.

[By-Tor]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not normal for most chinese families and absolutely insane for someone from a modern city like Shanghai .

[/ QUOTE ]

[fmxda]

I think I'm in a unique position to comment on this, being from an Asian-American (and Catholic) family:

To a large extent, yes, many Asian-American parents, religious or not, are controlling and strict regarding any possible spouses of their children.

I really don't think it has to do with your girlfriend having had failed relationships necessarily. Because obviously this 50 year old man is a really really attractive candidate for son-in-law in her mom's eyes, and the practically-arranged marriage (which I've never personally heard of before) is her mom's way of strongly indicating this preference. FWIW I don't think this means May has absolutely no choice in the matter, it just shows her mom's extreme desire for her to marry this guy.

In Mom's eyes, she knows her daughter hasn't agreed to it, she knows her daughter is pretty unhappy with it. I think, though, you are overblowing the golddigging aspect of it. This guy is culturally similar, takes care of her family, and all this means the mom is obviously thinking about her own well-being, as is her prerogative, but I think you are underestimating how much of it is because the Mom probably feels the daughter will truly be happy with this guy.

And it seems likely that her mom is well-aware of the pressure and stress that Boss' monetary gifts put on her daughter's conscience. I'm pretty sure in the view of Mom, it's just another means toward an ideal end; getting her daughter to marry Boss at all costs.

This means you two's (May's and your) line should really be to emphasize how unhappy she will be marrying Boss and how much happier she will be staying with you. The first part means your girlfriend will need to be confident and cool; but I don't see that she neccessarily has to tell her mom that she feels like a "prostitute." Seeing as she wants her parents to be a part of her life always, there's nothing wrong with being a little passive-aggressive at first and telling her mom that she wants to marry someone younger, with more in common with her.

The second part of the line means, yes, you need to tell her parents about you two. I've dated a few Asian-American girls, and you might find it interesting to know that they were initially wary of telling their parents because their parents were Chinese or Protestant and would pre-disapprove of me because I was Korean/Catholic (lol differenceaments). You could probably start by telling the more laid-back dad, and since you guys enjoy what seems to a be great connection, I think it will be easier than you think for May to soften her mom a little bit by revealing some of her genuine feelings about you, and maybe reminding her parents that you guys aren't serious enough to marry (you might have to lie and say "marry ever" here).

Another aspect of her mom's probable thought process you should be aware of is how she feels her daughter cancelling on Boss and having a white boyfriend will appear to her friends, peers, co-workers--practically the general public. I wouldn't underestimate the potential audience an Asian parent imagines regarding matters like these (as well as financial and academic issues). It would be a pretty big blow to the family's image to cancel things with a suitor like that and to essentially "replace" him with you. Since this relationship isn't going to get anywhere without cooperation or at least permissiveness from the parents, you gotta be respectful of this fact and be mindful of her perception of how it will appear to others. Your girlfriend probably has a good grasp on how to smooth things over for her mom personally.

Your ultimate goal is to have a happy, long-term relationship with this girl right? I would really look at your self and your prejudices first: "not a fan of the Catholic church anymore, mostly since she reached the age of reason" "And that guilt – thanks to Catholicism, ahh Catholicism." I don't really know what any of this has to do with Catholicsm, first of all. And, maybe I am thinking a little more long term than you want to, but how do you see yourself things working out in 10 years with this girl, if you guys most likely have differing views on her and her parents' religion?

The sooner you realize these and any other cultural differences are not unreconcilable boundaries and are things you can slowly effect your influence on, the better. You want to win them over persistently, but not alienate them.

Her mom's not evil or backwards, she is just doing whatever it takes to get what she wants for her daughter. You need to do the same, even if it means kissing ass, being constantly respectful, and always being aware of appearances (it will mean all those things).

I hope this helped, good luck man.

[fmxda]

PJ,

I just read your OOT post and your description of your gf physically as well as the way she likes to [censored] with you reminds me of my gf