To cbet or not to cbet

LearnedfromTV · #1 09-15-2007, 07:11 AM

So I've seen a handful of posts in here about cbetting, and I know that figuring out whether or not to cbet, and how much to bet, especially in lategame situations, can be tricky. Here is a hand I played in the wcoop 215 6 max second chance. I guess I could have posted it in hsmtt but I thought it would be better here. It's the kind of decision that people tend to skip over without really thinking it through.

We're in the money, 84 got paid, I'm something like 25/35 when this hand goes down.

SB is decent, which means I know he's good enough to be playing a reasonable range, but I don't know whether or not that range is as tight as it probably should be, or if it includes stuff like JT. He has not flatted OOP very often, maybe three or four times in the past hour; this is probably the first time he's done it from the SB rather than the BB. (but note that if he were going to, albeit with a somewhat limited range, this is the ideal stack size situation for it as an alternative to 3betting). BB is relatively new to table, but has been aggressive and a little erratic; he moved here with 18k, shoved his way to 23 or something, then doubled up by reshoving JTo and getting there v KQ. Obviously he's calling fairly wide given the odds laid by my smallish raise and the Sb's call.

So both of them have jacks and pairs in their range (but plenty of other stuff too). Don't overrate how much my reads on them mean - this hand and hands like it are mostly about the board texture, my hand, their preflop ranges, and a set of generic responses that most opponents take with most hands. (e.g. No "Oh BB's aggressive so do x"; BB having shoved a few hands and then restole once is like 5% of what matters in this hand - the opponent read stuff that *really* matters is stuff that's hard to know, like "how many hands does he check-call the flop with but fold to a turn shove?").

So, after all the build up. Do you bet?

If yes: Why are you betting? How much do you bet (and what does that betsize accomplish)? What are you planning to do on the turn if called?

Are there any hands you wouldn't bet? (Assume your range is like 75% standard "good hands" i.e. pairs, big aces, kq, kj; 15% suited connector type crap (i.e. 97s which is great if we're deep but here raising that instead of 72o basically a randomizer); 10% "[censored] it i feel like raising this time."

A secondary question which is obviously very relevant: how often (that is, with what percentage of their preflop range) is one of them checkraising me?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1500 (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB (t78970)
BB (t56090)
Hero (t28392)
MP (t100940)
Button (t13615)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t3888, 2 folds, SB calls t3138, BB calls t2388.

Flop: (t10014) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks,

levAA · #2 09-15-2007, 08:27 AM

First I think we should check the possible ranges of villains - specially of SB, who is more dangerous here i think.

I would set him on:
22-99,AT,AJ,AQ,KQ,KJ,QJ,JTs(?)

With: AJ,KJ,QJ,JT,33,77 he would consider a c/r - so as answer to your second question should be in 6/15 or 40%.

With: 88,99 he migh flat call your c-bet, as well as with something like KsQs.

So to answer your first question i would not c-bet here, but take the free-card a reorientate on the turn. maybe we get a possibility for a delayed c-bet here, maybe we draw one of our 2 out, or maybe things get just clearer.

LearnedfromTV · #3 09-16-2007, 06:36 AM

Ok, I don't really care because I didn't post this for advice, and if no one's interested then w/e, but when the forum split happened a lot of people here were worried about hsmtters never posting here and/or the forum content being weaker.

I put a little bit of time into a detailed post about a subject a lot of novices screw up (or don't understand why they're doing what they're doing). I expected it'd generate discussion.

I was probably going to follow up a good discussion with a theory post.

Oh well.

(No insult implied to lev; just that one response does not = discussion)

rsxpunk · #4 09-16-2007, 12:09 PM

without looking at the math i generally just check behind here in a 3 way pot, given any reasonable ranges i do not think we get two folds on the flop enough of the time here

Dave D · #5 09-16-2007, 12:13 PM

What I do know for sure is that I hate hate hate this situation and really am not sure what to do here. Small pairs in EP late tourney are probably the weakest part of my game.

I think people usually say the fold 55 PF UTG, unless you think a raise is gonna take it down.

I think a cbet of like 5000 is
1. too much of your stack. I mean if you fold you've just put in 1/4 of your stack pre and post flop. I don't think that should be happening.

2. like always getting raised. I mean unless the table has been really tight and folded to c-bets a lot.

I think I just check/fold here because I didn't hit my set.

I think I also limp PF and just setmine. I think you're deep enough for the implied odds to still be there. I don't like your PF bet size because it just encourages callers getting good odds against your generally weak hand.

hagbard celine · #6 09-16-2007, 01:57 PM

I just typed a response, then deleted it because I wasn't really getting your question.

This is a great post because it takes the thinking away from "what are my cards vs. opponents cards" and into the late game realm of "how does my hand hold up against the ranges of two opponents who have called my UTG raise from the blinds given their stack sizes and the texture of the board and the fact that they both checked to me."

To answer your question, no I do not bet. I don't bet because I don't want to invest at least 25% of my stack turning my hand into a bluff.

If I were to bet and get CRed, I would fold. If I bet and get called, I think I might just get it in on the turn, but I would hate it because I think it screams, "Go away please!" -- which is why I would just check behind on the flop.

I check behind because, to answer your second question, I feel that a CR is highly likely if SB or BB hit that flop, and you are not doing well against anything that they decide to CR you with.

rsxpunk · #7 09-16-2007, 03:30 PM

dave limping in here is bad imo. I usually just fold pre in these spots because i dont want to put myself in such a marginal spot.

erc007 · #8 09-16-2007, 09:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So I've seen a handful of posts in here about cbetting, and I know that figuring out whether or not to cbet, and how much to bet, especially in lategame situations, can be tricky. Here is a hand I played in the wcoop 215 6 max second chance. I guess I could have posted it in hsmtt but I thought it would be better here. It's the kind of decision that people tend to skip over without really thinking it through.

We're in the money, 84 got paid, I'm something like 25/35 when this hand goes down.

SB is decent, which means I know he's good enough to be playing a reasonable range, but I don't know whether or not that range is as tight as it probably should be, or if it includes stuff like JT. He has not flatted OOP very often, maybe three or four times in the past hour; this is probably the first time he's done it from the SB rather than the BB. (but note that if he were going to, albeit with a somewhat limited range, this is the ideal stack size situation for it as an alternative to 3betting). BB is relatively new to table, but has been aggressive and a little erratic; he moved here with 18k, shoved his way to 23 or something, then doubled up by reshoving JTo and getting there v KQ. Obviously he's calling fairly wide given the odds laid by my smallish raise and the Sb's call.

So both of them have jacks and pairs in their range (but plenty of other stuff too). Don't overrate how much my reads on them mean - this hand and hands like it are mostly about the board texture, my hand, their preflop ranges, and a set of generic responses that most opponents take with most hands. (e.g. No "Oh BB's aggressive so do x"; BB having shoved a few hands and then restole once is like 5% of what matters in this hand - the opponent read stuff that *really* matters is stuff that's hard to know, like "how many hands does he check-call the flop with but fold to a turn shove?").

So, after all the build up. Do you bet?

If yes: Why are you betting? How much do you bet (and what does that betsize accomplish)? What are you planning to do on the turn if called?

Are there any hands you wouldn't bet? (Assume your range is like 75% standard "good hands" i.e. pairs, big aces, kq, kj; 15% suited connector type crap (i.e. 97s which is great if we're deep but here raising that instead of 72o basically a randomizer); 10% "[censored] it i feel like raising this time."

A secondary question which is obviously very relevant: how often (that is, with what percentage of their preflop range) is one of them checkraising me?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1500 (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB (t78970)
BB (t56090)
Hero (t28392)
MP (t100940)
Button (t13615)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t3888, 2 folds, SB calls t3138, BB calls t2388.

Flop: (t10014) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)SB checks, BB checks,

[/ QUOTE ]

1st of all...thx for posting here. Your posts are always very thought-provoking and rich in content.

In terms of your hand equity on this flop, it's obv that you have more (preflop) equity vs BB than SB. My problem with betting is twofold:

1. We're not ahead of both their ranges combined, and we need both of them to fold in order for a c-bet to be profitable here. I don't think that u can continue if you c-bet 5-7K and get called. Other than a 5, very few turn cards will improve your hand and the ones that do only add a gutshot.

2. Even if SB/or BB folds x% of his range that we are ahead of, this may be negated by the fact that they will c/r semi-bluff with FD/FD+gutshot, or call and improve on the turn.

I realize that checking behind almost concedes the hand, since it will be tough to rep any hands on the turn, but committing anymore of your stack is just too costly here.

hamnegger · #9 09-16-2007, 10:42 PM

raise more preflop build flop with big hands not 55.

check fold if you don't improve. c-betting is not profitable.

kenny7 · #10 09-17-2007, 01:31 AM

OK,so I thought I'd take a shot as well.Although I express myself oh-so-bad when I try to write down my thoughts,and I basically have no clue anyway,I really like these kind of posts,and I really appreciate you posting here,reading stuff like this will definately make me better.

Here we go;
First of,what is your plan here? Are you playing the hand stricktly for set value? If so,you obv c/f to any bet. I will assume that you are not though,raising UTG.Yea,I know you would prefer to take it down pre,but that didn't happen,and I would think it is good to have a plan B.

First of all,I try to narrow down their holdings.No major reads,but we'll assume BB is wider than SB juding on his previous action. I think i"ll assign a pretty wide range here as he might have been tempted to come along for the ride after SB's call.

I doubt if either of them has a big hand,with these stacks you would think they'd both raise.SB because he doesn't want BB in,BB because he doesn't want to play 3 handed. ALso,although I don't know anything about your play so far,I would think they would both put you on a decent hand.After all,you did raise UTG.

The problem w the J is that is a card that's definately in their range.Other posters have put up ranges,so I'm not going to do that,other than say I disagree slightly,I think they are a little wider than what you guys say.

I cbet here would be natural,and I would think SB/BB expects it.Problem is that any decent cbet pretty much commits us,and I think you will get c/r ALOT here,of course what's worse is that they might even do it with hands like middle pair,and we really can't beat anything.

The other option is the check.Of course the villains might see that as weakness and bet the turn with absolutely nothing,in which case a cbet would have won it.

Having rambled on,personally I would check this.Too many times we are c/r here. I would also fold to any turnbet,I do think however,that I would bet if it is checked to me on the turn,Of course there are a few scare cards that'll make me check turn as well,but I do think that if they check....well,if they have any piece of it,they have to bet the turn,so this is a great spot for the delayed cbet,at least I think so.

I would really like to know what your plan for this hand was. I don't think I ever raise small pp in this situation.The position and the stacksize just makes it to tricky to play after the flop...at least it does for me,so I'm really wondering what you were thinking here.