Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)

[beign]

I was just wondering why some people, regardless of position, will raise with suited connectors in No Limit Hold 'Em? In terms of what it does when different types of players are present at the table and how it can be used to your advantage? My friend has also been wanting to know this.

I'll further preface this question with:

The idea of raising preflop with PPs and Premium hands is to induce a 3way pot or a heads up so you improve your hand's probability of winning. But with Suited Connectors, they're usually better when there are more than 3 people in a pot because your EV on it skyrockets. So why do some players like to raise like they have PP, regardless of position, with Suited Connectors?

[sayuncle]

I do it but not every time. I do it to vary play. If I only raise w/ premium hands, my opponents will figure that out.

[GiantBuddha]

To build a bigger pot so you can bet more when you make your hand and still get called.

[ATauO1]

I agree with the other posts- its done for many reasons-
It can also be done to set up bluffs- your going to bet no matter what hits the flop because you know everyone else is going to miss the flop roughly 70% of the time this is really true if you raise and cut the field down- if you hit nobody is going to know- if you don't hit, take a stab. if they fold you won- if they raise you fold< and show your hand and say "i was just kidding" they will think your a maniac and call you when you have a big hand.....

For the bluff to work make sure you know who you bluff and that you have a good image- don't bluff the calling station that NEVER folds-

[SplawnDarts]

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To build a bigger pot so you can bet more when you make your hand and still get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this precisely CONTRARY to the concept of implied odds, though?

[alanbrown]

actually not. There's 2 points to make here

1) It's ok to sweeten the pot PF with drawing hands as long as the stacks are deep enough to give you the implied odds. Implied odds are less a function of pot size and more a function of the size of the stacks behind.

2) Raising with SCs is different from open raising with SCs. If you open raise you'll scare off action which isn't what you want. But if you raise with them then one of 2 things will happen. Either every one will come along for the ride in which case you've simply raised the stakes that your SCs are playing for while not affecting your potential return (as long as the stacks are big enough to pay off the right price if you hit your draw). Or people will drop off, leaving their dead money in the pot and increasing your winning chances that way. Also note that you've done a good job of disguising your hand in this scenario also because most people don't play SCs that way (for the reasons you've raised).

Of course, this is a reason to justify raising sometimes with SCs, not raising all the time with them. They make great limping hands also.

[SplawnDarts]

[ QUOTE ]
actually not. There's 2 points to make here

1) It's ok to sweeten the pot PF with drawing hands as long as the stacks are deep enough to give you the implied odds. Implied odds are less a function of pot size and more a function of the size of the stacks behind.



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I'll agree your point 2) follows if 1) is true, but I'm not sure 1) is true. Usually when people talk implied odds, they're measured in terms of the ratio between what you have to put in the pot now vs. what you stand to win later. So in NL, it's usually initially talked about as the ratio between the BB and the stack sizes. However, if you raise, it would seem like the implied odds would now be the ratio of the total money you put in to stack size, which would be on the order of 1/4th of the previous ratio. I have a hard time seeing how your implied odds didn't just get FAR worse.

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To build a bigger pot so you can bet more when you make your hand and still get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this precisely CONTRARY to the concept of implied odds, though?

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not precisely contraray to the concept of implied odds. (Actually it could be, I'll get to that in a second.)

Assuming stacks are deep, then all you're doing is raising the stakes. This is not a bad idea at all if
a) you play better than your opponents post flop
b) several opponents will stay with you when you raise.

Now what you've done is basically turned your $1/2 NL game into a $5/10 NL game (or whatever) where you would have limped with this hand, but just for this one hand.

It also has the added benefit of representing a big pair so your hand will be quite deceptive if you hit it.

But this idea breaks down if the stacks are too small. You wouldn't want to do this if everyone was sitting around with $60 in your $1/2 game, for example. You might do it for other reasons, but then you'd be right - you'd be wrecking your implied odds because there's not enough money there to get for those rare times you hit big and get paid off big.

[SplawnDarts]

Generally speaking, it's a bad idea, whether it's NL or L you're talking about.

Suited connectors work on a principle called implied odds. What that means is that at the start of the hand, they aren't strong enough to "own" their fair share of equity in the pot. However, if they make their 8 or 9 card nut (or near nut) draw on the flop, they now own roughly 1/3 of the equity in the pot, and if they hit that draw they own basically 100% of the equity (ignoring the issue of drawing to non-nut hands for now).

So what you want to do with suited connectors is put in as little money while you're a dog before the flop, and plenty of money on the flop when you get your draw (assuming it's at least 3-way action), none on the turn if you don't hit (since your equity drops to more like 1/6th at that point if you miss the turn) and as much money anytime the draw hits as possible (regardless of how many people are still in the pot).

The only reason to raise low to mid suited connectors preflop is as a semi-bluff. If you think there's a reasonable chance everyone will fold before the flop, then they're a perfectly good hand to raise. This usually only works in NL holdem, but in tight L games it might work too.

High suited connectors, like KQs, can sometimes be raised for value as well as for bluff. Especially in limit.

[KinkyKid]

[ QUOTE ]
I was just wondering why some people, regardless of position, will raise with suited connectors in No Limit Hold 'Em? In terms of what it does when different types of players are present at the table and how it can be used to your advantage? My friend has also been wanting to know this.

I'll further preface this question with:

The idea of raising preflop with PPs and Premium hands is to induce a 3way pot or a heads up so you improve your hand's probability of winning. But with Suited Connectors, they're usually better when there are more than 3 people in a pot because your EV on it skyrockets. So why do some players like to raise like they have PP, regardless of position, with Suited Connectors?

[/ QUOTE ]

First, to get good answers (not saying any of the above are not) go to one of the potlimit/nolimit forums and post this question. Poker theory is where everyone starts, because its first, AND its "poker theory". Once they start posting more, they find their true homes in other sections (for the most part).

In limit, its usually not a good idea to raise up your suited connectors since you want a multiway pot. Although its not awful to occasionally cap a multiway pot with them. In no-limit, a lot of the game is disguising your hand. As another poster said, if you only raise premium hands, players will start to notice. Many of the good players will even 3-bet with some of their suited connectors, and lower pairs (22-66). People are much more willing to go broke in a 3-bet pot, partly due to the inflated size. There are a lot of players at the tables that only 3-bet KK, AA, and AK. That makes life pretty easy when the situation arises. But really, go read some of the pl/nl forums.