Help me to figure it out (75/150 Stars)

Borys313 · #1 07-12-2007, 07:20 AM

This hands left me puzzled.

PokerStars 75/150 Omaha/8 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB folds, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (6 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 6 BB

Results in white below: 
Button has Ah 5c Kc Ts (High: one pair, nines).
Hero has 7c 8d 2c 5d (High: one pair, nines).
Outcome: Button wins 6 BB. 

His turn check doesnt make much sense cause the 9 isnt a scary card so he is probably weak but never supposed that much weak.

Question 1?

Does any of you bet out here on river (Villian has a tendency to showdown quite light) ??

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PokerStars 75/150 Omaha/8 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP2 raises, Hero ????

MP2 is agro, although once he flatcalled all the way with a str-8 which left me puzzled.

Qustion 2?

Do you call, and if yes whats your plan on scary rivers?

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PokerStars 75/150 Omaha/8 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (3.83 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (3.83 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 3.83 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad Qc Ks 5c (High: two pair, aces and sevens).
Button has Jd 3h As Jh (High: two pair, aces and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 3.83 BB. 

Qusetion 3??

Valuebet river? Villian range for 3-bet is quite wide although usually this are hands with low potential.

Shabamabam · #2 07-12-2007, 12:16 PM

Hand 1. It makes sense for Villain's line. And the 9 does change quite a bit.

On the turn, if you're going to CALL one bet, why not be the bettor?

Hand 2.

Fold the flop. There's just way too little cards on teh turn that will come for you to continue on.

Hand 3.

Check/call is best. Just get to showdown cheap.

TxRedMan · #3 07-12-2007, 02:58 PM

hand 1 is really standard.

he three bets the flop because often times, and often enough, when he puts in the last raise on the flop he dictates the action on the turn. so he effectively saved one small bet, and was very wise to do so, because odds are you'll now be trying to checkraise him when you hit, and if he catches his gutter 3 big bets go in on the turn. in sum, three betting the flop saves one small bet because he's not forced to call a bet on the turn.

hand 2 is extremely marginal, and the only cards that you can catch on the turn that you'll like are kings, jacks, nines, and threes. the thing that most people dont realize about spots like this is that it's okay to call the flop, but most people get in a lot of trouble once they do call the flop. i.e., they continue in the hand when they shouldn't, and the flop call leads to a turn call which almost inevitably means you're going to showdown unless a terrible card falls. if you can't snap-fold this turn then you shouldn't be proceeding past the flop. IMHO, it's slightly + EV to call the flop, but it also puts you in a position where your decisions are going to be very difficult and most players should fold the flop because they end up making mistakes later on in the hand.

hand 3 i'd play it about the same. i dont mind checking the flop because A23 or A24 or any A-wheel-wheel hand is a great possibility for your opponent. i'm surprised he didn't bet the turn. you wouldn't check raise him with very many hands on that turn, and he's ahead of a lot of hands, especially given your action. I value bet this river, though, because you would have heard about it by now if he has aces and sevens or aces and tens or a set of aces. Yeah, so, value town time.

Borys313 · #4 07-12-2007, 07:56 PM

Thx for the insight.

I folded nr.2 mainly because of potential scare cards on river.

And wasnt sure if its not gonna be 4bets on turn and I cant justify calling that much with 2 pair, although i might be still good vs some wraps.

Shabamabam · #5 07-13-2007, 12:32 PM

tx on hnd3: don't know why he checked turn.

Just curious on why you think that he should bet the turn here (villain). Also, if Hero leads river and Villain raises river, can you find a fold?

Borys313 · #6 07-13-2007, 12:56 PM

Hand nr3.

He didnt bet turn because he knows I have an ace 90% of the time and go nowhere. The game was 7-handed and I raised from early postion, my hand just had to hit that flop somehow. Instead he opted for a cheap showdown, well played sir.

And if I would bet river for value I never fold to a raise.
Just read TX analysis to see why such raise has to be a desparate bluff

TxRedMan · #7 07-18-2007, 02:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
tx on hnd3: don't know why he checked turn.

Just curious on why you think that he should bet the turn here (villain). Also, if Hero leads river and Villain raises river, can you find a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think villain should bet his hand to protect it and push out a potential chop. i.e., villain has position, hero checks the flop, so does villain- this could mean a lot of things. usually players play their hands strangely when an ace flops and they have one in their hand. i've heard a 1000 times people say "how did an ace get out there", especially when it's a multi way pot. i digress. point is, players often play their hand weaker when an ace flops and there's one in their hand, especially in a spot like this.

if villain bets the turn, hero will be hard pressed to call when he has a hand like AK28 or the like, or basically any hand where hero has to consider he might be drawing slim to one half of the pot or the other. villain in this hand has a good deal of FE in this spot. i dont consider it a value bet per se, b/c you dont want to get called, obviously. it's more of a protection/fold equity type bet.

and to answer your other question, i wouldn't bet this river if i was planning on folding to a check raise, but i dont recall ever seeing the action go check/check, check/check, check/bet/raise on an ace high paired board that had a low possible. but no, i wouldn't bet/fold here. anytime i bet a river HU, i'm going to showdown more than, say, 95% of the time, because there's nothing worse than not going to showdown for the same price you could have gone to showdown for.

cero_z · #8 07-19-2007, 09:40 PM

Hi Tx,

[ QUOTE ]
there's nothing worse than not going to showdown for the same price you could have gone to showdown for.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't tell if you're joking, or if you mean in this specific hand, or what, but your statement as a generalization is very, very wrong. There are countless spots in SH O8 where you should take actions that will sometimes result in you not getting to showdown as cheaply (or indeed not at all) as you could've.

Here's a fairly common example: You are facing a pretty passive, abc station, who's been betting all the way HU and you make the 2nd nut flush on the river. You check the river, and he bets again. Many players would bet any flush, and will usually call a raise with any flush they bet, but never 3-bet without the nuts. Check-raising and folding to a 3-bet is probably the right play here. You could've gotten to showdown for 1 bet, but it's better to sometimes not get to showdown for 2.

TxRedMan · #9 07-20-2007, 04:27 AM

Cero Z,

It's hard for me to demonstrate what I'm talking about properly because you didn't give a specific board for the action. My comment about showdown wasn't an end all, be all for every situation, it was provoked by the hand in question and in specific, betting/calling a check raise on that specific river with that specific action leading up to the river bet. However, let me elaborate.

If the board is:

Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

And you are in position with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

And a preflop early position raiser has bet into you on the flop and the turn, and he checks the river, it is correct to bet, and it is correct to call a check raise, in general, and for the sake of discussion.

Take the same board, and consider that we're out of position. Same hand, same board, but this time we have some how check called the flop, check called the turn, and we have a situation on this river. I'm not sure how you play, but this is a standard bet for me. I dont check raise in HU pots very often at all. In general, my philosophy for betting in LO8 is a straight forward one. So I will bet this river for value almost every time. Reason being, the majority of my opponents are competent and will not bet this river with less than a flush. Granted, they will bet roughly 80% of the flushes they make on this river card, but i've found that too many times the river will get checked through when they dont have a flush, but they will payoff with a variety of hands when they dont, including smaller flushes, sets, two pair, and a stubborn or tilty AA. In sum, I feel that check raising has less overall and long term value than betting in spots like these, because of all the times (often) the river gets checked through.

So that being said, with my straight forward approach to betting and relative lack of much FPS in my game, I dont find myself in the situation you described above. The only time I check-raise HU is generally the flop or the turn, for fear of a river getting checked through. So when I do check-raise a river, it's very rare and always with a hand that I can call a three bet with, and in most cases, I have a hand I can 4 bet.

This is of critical importance in my opinion, that is to say going to showdown when you put money in on the river, because with the nature of a split pot game, if you're check raising hands on the river and folding to a three bet, you will end up throwing money away much more often than in any other game where the same play makes sense, i.e., limit hold'em.

In example, I know players who will bet/3-bet a river with a nut low and some semblance of a high hand, and I played with a player tonight who would three bet with a one way hand on a two way board, a hand that could be tied for high or potentially beaten. If you have QJ24 on a board that reads A-3-5-8-10, making you a wheel and a queen high flush, it's a standard river bet/three bet. The situations for such a play are countless, so if you combine that fact with my straight forward approach to betting, maybe you can see where my comment about getting to showdown has merit in my style of play, and the style that I reccomend.

In sum, I dont check raise the river because I've found that too often it will get checked through, and conversely many hands will pay off. Furthermore, if I have a hand that I want to bet on the river, I also have a hand that I can call one more bet with in the event of getting check raised. That last comment is a general one, because there are certain opponents who I can bet/fold to on the river, but the vast majority of the time I want to go to showdown, and will if I bet the river, especially in HU spots. In most instances, if you throw away a winner one time in ten, you've made a negative expectation play, and I know that at least one time in ten someone gets tricky with a naked ace or the like.

cero_z · #10 07-17-2007, 04:43 AM

Hi Borys,

Interesting. I would've played these hands very differently, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

Hand 1: Pre-flop call is standard and good. Flop c/r is good--on a 2-hi board, you have a chance to take control and win w/o showdown. But, since lots of players at these stakes will auto-bluff a flop like this vs. the pre-flop raiser, you can expect him to 3-bet you with a good pair (AJ, AA, etc). He doesn't need to be super-strong to 3-bet you. I 4-bet it to show him I'm serious, and that may win the pot for me if the board bricks off bad for his hand on the turn or he was raising with a big draw and doesn't get there. Thus, I'd be betting the 9 all day if I'd capped it, but as played, I think you should c/c and c/f if you don't make a straight on the river. His turn play is consistent with both a house that has you likely drawing dead, and with a bluff/semi-bluff/overplay on the flop that lost its nerve and now fears a c/r. Even so, in my experience people are paying off REALLY light here if you bet the river, so don't bluff. It's too late now.

Hand 2: Pre-flop and flop are standard and good, though leading the flop makes sense, as well. The turn, though, is a clear lead, IMO. There's a good chance you have the best hand, and you should charge the lows. You have small backup (T or maybe J will win sometimes) if you're trailing. Checking is criminal IMO. Once it goes bet, raise, though, you need to fold; you're going to the river 3 ways, which is real bad for your hand.

Hand 3: You have a straight-up value cap pre-flop, once the pot is HU. Your hand does very well vs. A23x even. I'd probably c/c the flop as well; not a very good one for you. The turn isn't great, either, but I think you should usually bet there if your opponent isn't tricky (liable to have checked a very good hand behind on the flop). You now have a little low working, and he could be very weak, with like AQQJ or something. The river is a great card for you; don't see how you don't bet that for value.

Edited to say Tx made a ton of good points about Hand 1 in particular.