Understanding "Small Pot" and "Value Bet" conflict

TJD · #1 07-12-2006, 04:51 AM

Hi all,

I am new to NL but have won consistently at limit.

I am sure it is obvious to you experienced guys but I see a potential conflict with the 2 concepts above. I'd really appreciate it if you would help me understand better. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I can see the logic of "small hand/small pot" but more than once on this forum the idea of "Value betting to death" has been suggested as being the key to a good win rate.

Is the "potential" conflict nothing more than picking our spots?

For example, versus a tricky solid player, we know that continuing to pound is only going to induce a fold or cost us a lot of chips if behind (small pot concept employed). However, against the guy who called 3 big post flop bets from me yesterday with TPPK when I had a set, I should be looking to play the same way with TP only?

Equally, against a solid player who checks the river OOP, I can probably assume that he either has nothing of real worth and has decided to give up or he has a medium strength hand with which he intends to call hoping he has induced a bluff. Against him, "value betting" a moderate hand will not be +EV but against the loosie who will call with 4th pair a bet has value.

Is this it or have I missed some important point(s) about when to inflate the pot rather than keep it small with a moderate hand?

Thanks all.

Trevor

younghov17 · #2 07-12-2006, 04:54 AM

unfortunatly it isnt as easy as if/else, it depends on the board, your opponent, and your image. best i can do is look over some hands for you as every situation is different.

Jouster777 · #3 07-12-2006, 06:41 AM

Maybe this hand has some relevant points that I have questions on too. I had been raising a fair bit prior to this and getting folds to cbets so I wasn't surprised to get some playback and expected villain to have a Q, maybe a good 8 or better. When the board paired I am even more WA/WB so I tried to keep the pot size reasonable by just calling the turn despite the FD out there (I didn't think he would be the FD twice). I think I am still ahead of villain's range here and I probably missed a river value bet when he bets small however if he pushes I probably need to call. Questions - Call on turn ok? Need to value bet the river?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($63.73)
Hero ($63.04)
MP ($30.55)
Button ($52.30)
SB ($19.27)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.5, BB raises to $7, Hero calls $3.50.

Turn: ($18.25) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $8, Hero calls $8.

River: ($34.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $8, Hero calls $8.

Final Pot: $50.25

younghov17 · #4 07-12-2006, 04:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe this hand has some relevant points that I have questions on too. I had been raising a fair bit prior to this and getting folds to cbets so I wasn't surprised to get some playback and expected villain to have a Q, maybe a good 8 or better. When the board paired I am even more WA/WB so I tried to keep the pot size reasonable by just calling the turn despite the FD out there (I didn't think he would be the FD twice). I think I am still ahead of villain's range here and I probably missed a river value bet when he bets small however if he pushes I probably need to call. Questions - Call on turn ok? Need to value bet the river?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($63.73)
Hero ($63.04)
MP ($30.55)
Button ($52.30)
SB ($19.27)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.5, BB raises to $7, Hero calls $3.50.

Turn: ($18.25) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $8, Hero calls $8.

River: ($34.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $8, Hero calls $8.

Final Pot: $50.25

[/ QUOTE ]

no this is a hand where you should be looking to get more money in. generally when a straight is impossible, fd is out and the only hand you can lose to is a set, you should look to build the pot assuming you only have 100 bb and he issnt an extreme nit.

again this isnt a set in stone rule but your will be v tp/fd a huge majority of the time with a set making up a very small minority.

younghov17 · #5 07-12-2006, 04:31 PM

a good example of being forced to give free cards in no limit to control the pot, 6 max nl 1/2

utg and mp limp, you make it 12 to go with adac, sb folds, bb and both limpers call, flop comes

8h jh qc($49)

its likely you have the best hand, and the board is very drawy so you definitly need to bet, its checked around to you, a good bet size would be 35, so you bet 35.

everyone calls, turn comes

2s($189)

checked to you again. without a very strong read that your at a table full of donkeys you really can not bet at this situation because any bet that wont induce a bluff commits your stack to 1 pair on a terrible board. its extremely hard to tell if someone already has you beaten, and even if they dont half the deck could easily beat you on the river, and u have very little shot at improving, so u should check behind here and if an obvious draw hits you have to let it go facing any big bets. id probably call a bet up to 50, as i dont have to be ahead that often to show a profit.

Jouster777 · #6 07-12-2006, 04:31 PM

Thanks Younghov, you make great points. I knew I missed value here and I think the minraise on the flop threw me off a bit. As for getting the money in...more on the flop, turn, river, or all of the above? I think the turn because of the FD...failing that, the river for sure.

younghov17 · #7 07-12-2006, 04:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Younghov, you make great points. I knew I missed value here and I think the minraise on the flop threw me off a bit. As for getting the money in...more on the flop, turn, river, or all of the above? I think the turn because of the FD...failing that, the river for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

i raise the flop here v most opponents, tho v more agressive opponents who will fire the turn i raise almost any non spade turn

MyTurn2Raise · #8 07-12-2006, 05:00 AM

I think this ties into what Ed Miller stresses in repeating that no-limit is a very fluid game. Many concepts are in play and some counteract each other from time to time. You are right, it comes down to weighing which factor best fits the situation at hand.

MyTurn2Raise · #9 07-12-2006, 05:11 AM

words of advice that came to me one night:

If you have to ask if you want the pot to be big, you don't want a big pot.

Nearly all of the value bet decisions should be coming in small pots; it is only the difference in a larger small pot or a tiny small pot.

bobdibble · #10 07-12-2006, 06:18 AM

I have a problem with this too. Say you have a big overpair, or a big TPTK, or a weak two pair, the board is full of draws and there are a lot of people in the pot... In order to protect your hand, you need to be making big bets.. i.e. somewhere between half and full pot. However, by the time the turn gets there, the pot has become huge due to all the players. e.g. you make a 4BB pf raise, you get called in 5 places.. pot is now 24BB, you bet 15BB on the flop, and get 3 callers, pot is now 84BB going into the turn and (assuming you started with 100BB) now have a massive pot with medium hand by NL standards.. This seems to be a recpie for getting stacked by a set.