Chapter 1... Who created evil?

shhhnake_eyes · #1 03-18-2006, 12:10 PM

My book (excuse me, dvd) is not about proving it is right.... its about disproving others.
You can look at this dvd as the politician who wins because he/she puts down all the other competition.
So what is evil?
Lets assume premises from The Bible/ Christian religion are true:
a. God created everything
b. God is all good

1. If God created everything, he created angels.
2. If he created angels, he created Lucifer.
3. Lucifer is Satan.
4. Satan is evil.(according to Christians)

Therefore by premise 1 and premise 4 cant we conclude that God created evil?

God created everything and God is all good. By looking above, these messages are conflicting, are they not?

Looking for input...

Matt R. · #2 03-18-2006, 12:18 PM

Yes, God created evil (by your premises), but he didn't create it directly. He also gave Lucifer free will, so Lucifer had the option to become evil. Evil, as you describe it, is a result of free will.

It's not conflicting because God chose to make free will a priority. The downside of that is of course an individual can choose evil. But it doesn't conflict with the idea of a "good" God.

shhhnake_eyes · #3 03-18-2006, 12:25 PM

there is a difference between good and all good God, and i think most religions say he is an ALL good GOd

Matt R. · #4 03-18-2006, 12:34 PM

I know, that doesn't change my point though. If God created our reality and his #1 priority was to create a reality without the possibility of evil, he would have to disallow free will. We would all be robots programmed to do only good -- we'd have no choice in the matter. I'm simply saying that based on your presuppositions an "all good" God doesn't conflict with the idea of evil being present in the universe because the priority was to allow conscious beings the right to choose.

shhhnake_eyes · #5 03-18-2006, 12:54 PM

i guess it comes down to is that ur saying in a way, actions speak louder than words.
For instance, John does everything perfect. John however does think about something wrong though. Although he doesnt say it, we still view John as perfect.

How is john really PERFECT IF he had this idea of wrong?

im not talking about free will, im talking about the idea of evil, not the actions of evil

Matt R. · #6 03-18-2006, 01:02 PM

Most religions would say God is all-knowing. An all-knowing God can of course "think" whatever he wants to. Further, I would argue that simply creating a being with free will allows the possibility of evil. The creator of said being doesn't even have to consider the possibility of evil -- it's ingrained in the notion of free will.

Also, as to your John example, I would argue that John is far from perfect if he does not consider the possibilities of evil. If John cannot even consider a simple dichotomy such as good vs. evil he would have to be mentally deficient in some way, or lack complete free will.

Jeff W · #7 03-18-2006, 04:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not conflicting because God chose to make free will a priority. The downside of that is of course an individual can choose evil.

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Assumptions:
1. God is Omniscient.
2. God is Omnipotent.
3. God created everything.

If God created you(and everything about you, because he created everything you interact with and he knew the results of those interactions before he created you) and He knows everything that's going to happen before it happens, then He, not you, chose for you to be evil or good.

One counterargument is that we can't understand the will of God. I totally agree, but in that case we might as well throw out religion as a whole. If God's will is unfathomable then it is possible that The Holy Bible is a deception intended to lead us off the righteous path of murdering, raping and pillaging and that only those who reject it will be given a seat in the kingdom of heaven.

Matt R. · #8 03-18-2006, 08:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If God created you(and everything about you, because he created everything you interact with and he knew the results of those interactions before he created you) and He knows everything that's going to happen before it happens, then He, not you, chose for you to be evil or good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this conclusion follows. Let's say God created a conscious being and gave this being free will. If he is faced with a choice A or B and he has free will then he can clearly choose A or B. He is not constrained to pick one or the other. I have heard the argument that this means God cannot see the future and therefore is not omniscient, but I disagree. Einstein has shown us that our conception of time is relative, therefore I think it is reasonable to assume that God is not constrained by our human conceptions of past/present/future. Therefore God's knowledge of our future actions is dependent upon what we choose or will choose, not the other way around. Since time is not absolute as we perceive it, I think it is reasonable to assume that an omniscient God "sees" both our choice and the result of our choice simultaneously. It is simply our perception that one comes before the other that makes it appear that God's knowledge forced our hand into being "good" or "evil".

Jeff W · #9 03-19-2006, 01:42 AM

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Einstein has shown us that our conception of time is relative...

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You mean time dilation? T=t*(1-(v^2)(c^-2))^(-1/2) where T is time in a stationary reference frame, t is time in the moving reference frame and v is the velocity of the moving reference frame? What does this have to do with the argument at hand?

I suggest you either clarify your argument or learn more about the science you reference before you use it to draw questionable conclusions...

[ QUOTE ]
...therefore, I think it is reasonable to assume that an omniscient God "sees" both our choice and the result of our choice simultaneously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leaving aside that this doesn't follow from the preceding statement: How does this refute my argument? If God created us, God created everything we interact with and God knows everything, then we do not have the free will to choose between Good and Evil...God already chose it for us.

He constructed us in such a way that when put into the environment we exist in, we will choose either Good or Evil. If He built us another way, we would choose the opposite. If we had the capacity to choose for ourselves, that would imply one or more of the following:

A. God isn't omniscient.
B. God isn't omnipotent.
C. God didn't create everything.
D. Humans don't have free will.
E. The paradox is not a paradox but only appears to be so because of humanity's fundamental inability to understand the motive or actions of a supreme being.

NotReady · #10 03-19-2006, 05:47 AM

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He constructed us in such a way that when put into the environment we exist in, we will choose either Good or Evil. If He built us another way, we would choose the opposite.

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The opposite of what? Do you mean if He built us another way we would choose good instead of evil or vice versa? That denies the premise of free will.