Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?

[crazyhands]

Here is something interesting I read in Small Stakes Hold'em about a week ago. It gets me thinking that there is no point in playing low or micro limit hold'em online anymore. On page 48, under the heading "bad hands and dead money", it states this:

"If your opponents limited themselves only to those hands that are profitable, most pots would be contested heads up or 3-handed."

This is precisely the case at sites like Full Tilt and Ultimate Bet. It seems like there is no point in playing at all. It seems as though you win and lose based on luck, since most players are playing by small stakes hold'em. I really don't know how anyone can argue with me. These games are simply not profitable anymore.

Your thoughts?

[Push_Fold]

You're right it is not worth playing micro-limit HE online.

[PokerEveryDay]

What is your time worth? I think you already know the answer.

[HSB]

If you enjoy it, yes. If you don't, no.

[JOHNY CA$H]

Small Stakes Hold 'em is not the apex of poker theory.

[superpokermon]

Well, yeah, so they play ok preflop. That's great. I haven't read SSHE in a while, but I believe it also says that after the flop is when the real money is won and lost in Texas Hold'em. Even at tough site like Full Tilt, the microlimit and small stakes players suck after the flop. A good player can easily profit from the other player's poor post flop play. Playing well pre-flop will not make you a winner at TX HE. Regardless, if the micro games at Full Tilt are are too tough for you, then consider these two options:
1. Get better at post flop play, and you can crush these games.
or
2. Find a softer site. I don't play at full tilt myself....been there, done that. There are too many sites out there where the players don't have a clue. It's almost like it's not real money at these stakes at some sites. Personally, I'm not going to learn to beat the full tilt guys when the other sites offer such soft games. That's my solution, and it works for me. Game selection is everything. If the games are not good at FT, then find a site where they are good. It's not that hard. I found one, but I suspect there are quite a few others. FWIW, I can beat the FT games, but the site I am playing now is just stupidly beatable. It's like the other players are rich philanthropists, and I'm their favorite charity. I had a guy push a 100BB stack pre flop w AQo yesterday in a full ring game. I had AA and instacalled. The guys I play with can't even play decent pre flop poker...and they are completely retarded after the flop comes out.

So move the hell off of full tilt if you have trouble beating the game. When I played there, I couldn't believe how much thought some of these 25NL players had put into their game. I had to find a site where people just came to gamble and play jerk off poker...so I tried some other sites and found they were much softer.

Also, if you are playing limit...consider making the move to NL. Good post flop strategy in No Limit will get more money with less risk...another way to look at it is that your advantage as a skilled player is higher at an NL game. Micro stakes No limit games at other sites are juicy as hell. I don't play limit anymore, so I don't really know what's up with that.

[jukofyork]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, yeah, so they play ok preflop. That's great. I haven't read SSHE in a while, but I believe it also says that after the flop is when the real money is won and lost in Texas Hold'em. Even at tough site like Full Tilt, the microlimit and small stakes players suck after the flop. A good player can easily profit from the other player's poor post flop play.

[/ QUOTE ]
If they aren't entering the pot with J2o anymore then there is much less scope for them to make huge costly postflop mistakes and for you to profit significantly.

If 4BB/100 was possible for good players back in the days of 7 to the flop and 15BB pots, then I guess now an excellent player might just be able to eak out a slightly +ve BB/100 while paying about 2-3BB/100 in rake by outplaying rocks postflop at F/R LHE.

Alternatively you can play micro-limit 6max where their might be more fish potential, but ultimately you just end up paying 4-5BB/100 in rake and that soon kills of the extra winrate.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[crazyhands]

I pretty much got the replies I was expecting. The profitablity of the games goes WAY down when there are 2-3 to the flop vs. 5-6 or so.

One reason I posted this is because I just came back from playing some juicy $2-4 live. This was the first time playing in live in a casino since reading small stakes HE. The cards ran very cold towards the end of my last session and got a few beats put on me and still finished about 18-20bb up.
After comming back home and playing some micro-limit, it was a shock to me how different the games were. Pretty much like night and day.
I do agree that NL allows others to make MORE COSTLY mistakes, which allows you to make more money, so I might consider the switch.

[wrschultz]

I think that learning a very basic strategy for how not to be a big loser at limit is pretty easy and more and more people are able to do it now. Of course you can adapt and become an insane LAG if you want to, but as jukofyork said, "If they aren't entering the pot with J2o anymore then there is much less scope for them to make huge costly postflop mistakes...."

As someone who played almost exclusively limit for 2006, and has switched to almost exclusively nl for 2007, I can say that it is MUCH harder to become a 'decent' nl player, and the games are much much better.

[MicroBob]

Just because 3 people are in the pot on every hand doesn't mean the table isn't good.

Not super-duper juicy. But to just think that all the players are roughly of equal skill and are just passing pots back and forth because they all do the same thing is REALLY incorrect.
There are lots of mediocre to not-complete-horrible limit players online. There really aren't many who I would descirbe as 'pretty good'. And even fewer who are even sharper than that.

Seriously, there are so many post-flop decisions to be made and SO many of them are NOT automatic.
If you aren't seeing SEVERAL mistakes in just one orbit at almost any table (iffy call-downs or semi-bluffs, checking-through when there was clear value in a river-bet, etc) then you just aren't looking hard enough...or, more likely, you just don't know what to look for.

The games are incredibly beatable.

Many tables with averages of 22/10 or something will still have a couple players who are in the 14/4 range which is extremely exploitable as well as some 33/8's who make lousy post-flop mistakes.


This isn't to say that NL isn't 'better' or 'more profitable' or whatever.
Just arguing against the notion that all these limit players are pretty much playing the same game and are therefore mostly unbeatable against each other.

Want to beat these games? Get better (and run hot too, that always helps).