Restating My "Religion Does Good" Post More Explicitly

[David Sklansky]

If tomorrow it was somehow proved to everybody in the world that there was no god of any sort, about 80% of the world would be personally distressed. 15% would be neutral. Only about 5% would become happier.

About ten percent of those who became inititally distressed would eventually personally DIRECTLY benefit from this new found knowledge to a point where it have more than made up for their distress. Still lots more would remain unhappy.

Put another way, even unborn people, at least for a few generations would be more likely to be happier if they believed. (Unless they were born into a very advanced country like Sweden).

On the other side of the coin is the indirect benefits to those who remain distressed. Fewer wars. More people working on cancer cures. Less repression. These extra benefits tip the balance for some more distressed people. However even throwing these things in, I think the overall happiness units of the world population would decrease without religion. Too many people would remain extremely unhappy without their god. (Of course if that is not an important measure in your eyes we have a different discussion.)

I will admit that even using my criteria, it is close. But only because present day religions are often so bad. If all religious people were either Episcopalians or reformed Jews I don't think we would want to change them.

[madnak]

You're pulling this out of nowhere. Do you have anything other than personal intuitition to back up these claims? What if you're wrong about the ten percent figure you quote, and the true figure is actually twenty percent? Would that tip the scales? Do you have any rational process according to which you've reached your conclusion? If, as you admit, "it is close," then how can you have a high level of confidence in your estimate?

I think your main problem is that you hugely underestimate the impact of war and disease, and you hugely overestimate the impact of existential distress. And of course I think you ridiculously underestimate the ease with which people can get over this problem. I'd lay 2:1 that within 20 years at least 60% of the prior theists would have regained their level of satisfaction.

And the long term is just as important as the short term.

[IronUnkind]

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I think your main problem is that you hugely underestimate the impact of war and disease,

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But you hugely overestimate the degree to which religiousness influences such things.

[drzen]

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I think your main problem is that you hugely underestimate the impact of war and disease,

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But you hugely overestimate the degree to which religiousness influences such things.

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It's curious that Mr Sklansky is so keen on the end of religion, but has no problem with money, which may not be the root of all evil but lies at the root of most conflict.

[hitch1978]

Am I naive to believe that a number of people, if told tomorrow 'There is 100% NO GOD - here's the proof', would suddenly see things like rape, murder, theft, robbery etc. acceptable?

I am not saying I agree or disagree with OP, just trying to add something that seems to be always forgoten in these conversations. And I am not only talking about devout believers here. There is a MASSIVE difference between non-belief in god, (and in the ramifications therin implied with regard to everlasting punishment/reward etc,) and knowing for a fact there is no god.

[Duke]

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Am I naive to believe that a number of people, if told tomorrow 'There is 100% NO GOD - here's the proof', would suddenly see things like rape, murder, theft, robbery etc. acceptable?

I am not saying I agree or disagree with OP, just trying to add something that seems to be always forgoten in these conversations. And I am not only talking about devout believers here. There is a MASSIVE difference between non-belief in god, (and in the ramifications therin implied with regard to everlasting punishment/reward etc,) and knowing for a fact there is no god.

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There are perhaps 3 people on this board who claim that they'd behave as you describe.

I'm pulling that number out of my ass.

[madnak]

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There is a MASSIVE difference between non-belief in god, (and in the ramifications therin implied with regard to everlasting punishment/reward etc,) and knowing for a fact there is no god.

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There are no ramifications. Unless we ascribe characteristics to God, then any possible reward/punishment is essentially random. For every possible God who would reward a given action, there is a possible God who would punish that action in equal degree.

But that's off the subject. Do you really think nonbelievers are significantly motivated by fears about the afterlife? To such an extent that their behavior would change meaningfully if they were to learn that there are definitely no gods?

I really don't think afterlife is a significant motivator. Oh, it logically should be, for people who believe in it - but then again, the majority of people act in ways perfectly consistent with their surroundings and with self interest/reciprocal altruism. A person who believes that cheating on his wife will send him to hell is just as likely to cheat as a person who has no such belief. People don't tend to respond in their day-to-day lives to these kinds of threats. They do tend to respond to immediate pain and the threat of sanctions in life.

Overall, I think morality is a matter of biology and conditioning - not of belief. And most people just don't want to go around causing chaos and hurting others.

I was affected by the theistic ideas, and I became consumed with guilt and had regular panic attacks featuring the hell I was sure I would go to. In my case, I was no less moral after abandoning the idea of God, but I'm much more functional and self-confident now (which allows me to do much greater good overall). Oh yeah, did I mention I'm happier?

[InTheDark]

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Am I naive to believe that a number of people, if told tomorrow 'There is 100% NO GOD - here's the proof', would suddenly see things like rape, murder, theft, robbery etc. acceptable?

I am not saying I agree or disagree with OP, just trying to add something that seems to be always forgoten in these conversations. And I am not only talking about devout believers here. There is a MASSIVE difference between non-belief in god, (and in the ramifications therin implied with regard to everlasting punishment/reward etc,) and knowing for a fact there is no god.

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I see some really awful possibilities resulting from removing God across the board. Life would likely get worse for everyone.

The higher % of church attendees in my neighborhood, the safer my person and property.

[Phil153]

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Put another way, even unborn people, at least for a few generations would be more likely to be happier if they believed.

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wtf? At least invoke Baye's if you're going to make claims like that, or provide some kind of reasoning.

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(Unless they were born into a very advanced country like Sweden).

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The only thing advanced about Sweden is that they don't teach their kids psychotic crap like the OT and Jesus stories. Besides, there are plenty more countries beside Sweden with high atheist numbers and high happiness ratings. I linked the info in the other thread.

[InTheDark]

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Besides, there are plenty more countries beside Sweden with high atheist numbers and high happiness ratings. I linked the info in the other thread.



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If they're so happy, why aren't they able to reproduce at replacement levels? No one seems to have a reasonable answer for this.

From a Darwinian point of view, a happy (fit, successful) species makes lots of offspring. What's going on with these high % atheist countries?