Head up with big-draw, 2 similar 20/40 hands

[RobA]

These are two similar spots. I got both wrong. I figured maybe i could sort some concepts out by posting them together, see if you guys could tease out what makes one hand's play different from the other.

Live 20/40 in AC. Saturday afternoon.

Hand 1:
Folded to me on Button, I raise with KT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

SB 3-bets (he's 20'sish white kid, seems like the kind of guy that read Stox book). BB folds. I call.

Flop 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

He bets, I call.

Turn 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He bets. What's my best plan from here for turn/river, if I hit river, and if I miss river.


Hand 2:

Folded to me in CO, I raise with AT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Button (guy from previous hand is walking. this is his friend. they've been talking a lot of poker talk. this villain is aggro. seems to 3-bet preflop more than your cards should allow you to, but has only shown me AA, and KJs in the 45 minutes he's been at the table.) 3-bets. Blinds fold, I call.

Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, he bets, I call.

Turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Best plan from here for turn/river, and please include what to do for rivers that hit and miss.


Thank you for you comments.

[n.s.]

I'll probably get this wrong as well, but here goes...

hand 1: I think I'd raise the flop and either take a free turn card (folding the river u/i), or bet the turn depending on what card came and how my opponent reacted to the raise (I think I'd bet this particular turn card).

As played, I'd just call the turn. Fold the river if we miss, call a T, raise a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K.

hand 2: I'd check-raise this flop and lead most turns. You've got a ton of outs to a strong hand, and you'll put a lot of pressure on a small PP.

As played, I think I might c/r the turn if you think this guy can lay down a hand. I would also consider calling the river u/i if he is pretty aggro.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
SB 3-bets (he's 20'sish white kid, seems like the kind of guy that read Stox book)

[/ QUOTE ]

Then he seems like the kind you can bluff. Find a raise. If you didn't do it on the flop, you can certainly do it on the turn. If you raised and are called on the turn, you can value bet a K, T or [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], but he's probably committed to a showdown, so I wouldn't bluff if you missed.

Hand 2:

You have a hand you can give some decent action to. Gutshot+over+nut flush draw? Just check-raise the flop and he may well lay down an underpair right away.

Plan for bricked river? Well, your way you have no idea where you're at. I guess look him up, but I feel queasy doing that against anyone but maniacs. But if you put in some aggressive action and get called, your river miss decision should be a piece of cake.

Garland

[leo doc]

Hand 1: raise the flop. Take the freebie if the turn bricks.

Hand 2: Is there anyone here that would consider 4-betting PF against this particular villian? ("this villain is aggro. seems to 3-bet preflop more than your cards should allow you to")

[scoresman]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: raise the flop. Take the freebie if the turn bricks.
)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 I would 4-bet pf against this villain.

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: raise the flop. Take the freebie if the turn bricks.
)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 I would 4-bet pf against this villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it wrong to want to four-bet both of these preflop? Anyway that's neither here nor there.

I don't know if its right, but I'd raise both of these flops and probably keep firing most turns.

[NinaWilliams]

If I was going to 4 bet, Id 4 bet in hand #1 but not hand #2.

Anyway, in hand #1 raising the flop is best because a lot of his range missed that flop and you standard a good chance of winning the pot against a better K or an A. Fire the turn UI if he calls the flop. The value you get from winning the pot with the worst hand far outweighs the fraction of a bet you lose when he calls or raises.

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]

If I was going to 4 bet, Id 4 bet in hand #1 but not hand #2.



[/ QUOTE ]

I was also thinking that hand 1 was a clearer 4bet than hand 2.

[ssmallz]

Hand 1: SB is betting 100% of his range here so his flop bet means nothing. You have more than enough equity to raise the flop for value b/c you have 15 outs very often. If he 3 bets you should call and raise a heart for value. If K hits on the turn, call and raise the river. If he just calls your raise, you've gotta fire again on the turn. There are a lot of hands that will call your raise only to fold to a turn bet UI. I'd also fire again on the river if its a blank b/c you can def fold hands like Ax, KJ, and KQ w/another river bet which may have called the turn intending to c/f the river UI.

As played I think you should raise the turn. Again, this guy has A high a lot and while getting 3 bet sux, you can get him to lay down a lot of hands that are ahead of you or have 6 outs to call with. Getting 3 bet puts your in a tough spot but you're still likely drawing to 12 outs.

Hand 2: Again raise the flop. What you're failing to recognize in these 2 hands the pr aggressor will bet the flop blind so take advantage of that. He could be 3 betting w/88 or TT and will be hating life if you c/r him. So I c/r and barrell the turn. Most of thse guys aren't sophisicated enough to call your flop bet and raise the turn for a free showdown so you will know exactly where you are at all times. W/drawing hands HU you've gotta make a play for the pot and put people in tough spots. I prefer to do it on the flop b/c our draws have the most equity and its cheaper than semibluffing the turn. This will be very good for your metagame when you hit your draw or get caught bluffing.

As played this hand becomes much tougher. C/r'ing the turn would look real powerful but you've gotta do it against the right player. Getting 3 bet here would make your puke but I think you win the pot often enough to make it +EV. Since you did take the passive line here, I don't mind calling here and playing it strait foward on the river. As a general rule I don't like to make plays on the turn unless I have a read that my opponent is scared of me or capable of making a lay down.

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]
If K hits on the turn, call and raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm interested in this point, and I think I agree. Do you think he is getting away from some of his range that he'll valuebet on the river (99-QQ) sometimes if we raise the turn? If I'm not off, as a coralary, shouldn't we be raising Queen and Ace turn cards? All this assumes that the action on the flop goes b/r/3b