Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread

[Dominic]

Midnight Cowboy, John Schlesinger, 1969.





okay people, let's talk!

I've always been most impressed by the performances and by Schlesinger's willingness to let the characters be the story, rather than have some inane "plot" thrust upon them.

It's such a "60's" movie, and one that I think is the demarcation film between Old, Classic Hollywood and what would become the New Hollywood of Spielberg, Scorcese and Kubrick. In other words, Midnight Cowboy is the first film of a movement in motion pictures that became the Golden Age of the 1970s. A watershed film. And I think it's also the first mainstream, Hollywood movie that didn't shy away from the homosexuality of it's themes or it's director!

Voight and Hoffman are just incredible together, too. At it's most simple, Midnight Cowboy is a love story between Joe Buck and Ratzo Rizzo.

[Blarg]

The songwriter, I later found out, was a pretty revered treasure amongst people in the know, and missed a lot of the fame of the fantastic theme song, sung by Nilsson. Extremely evocative to me.

The whole movie was. You're right on how wonderful this movie was with giving space to the characters. The subject was so often the characters' feelings and reactions to things, not a relentless march of plot. I really like that kind of movie, and it feels much more like something I would recognize as life.

[Dominic]

by the way, Hoffman's famous line, "I'm walkin' here!" was an improv - the taxi in the movie is a real one! Voight always mentions this and laughs because he says he was really startled, first by the Tax and then by Hoffman, and then tried not to laugh and stay in character.

[diebitter]

I saw this movie 20+ years ago, when I was a young twentysomething, and back then didn't like it that much. Bits were okay and quite memorable (I still remember the whole scene where he's asking the lady with the poodle for money, and she gets 20 out of him), but that first time, it just seemed a complete mess. I did forget the whole flashback/memory device though, so that came as a surprise.


I liked this film a lot. While the story was threadbare and there wasn't even much dialogue, I found it pretty rivetting watching. Hoffman was terrific and understated, and this must have been a shock to audiences used to him in The Graduate.


** SPOILERS **

I found the whole flashback thing very ambiguous. Was his grandma good and kind, or was she mean and abusive, for example - hard to say from these little glimpses. And the thing with the girl. I couldn't work out what was real, what was fantasy, or what order we were to impose on these possible events. At one point she seems to be walking willingly somewhere, being provocative, as men follow, at another she's attacked and gangraped (as is Joe), then we seem to see him as one of the crowd watching her in a gangbang, and the constant voiceover of 'you're the only one, Joe'. This is obviously haunting him, but what happened? There's a few possibles I guess:

- She was the town pump, and was in a gangbang, but they became lovers and he becomes 'the only one'. The good ole boys decide on a good time one night, and attack both of them,

- She was his girl, then somehow took part in a gangbang which he starts to rationalise as an attack

- She was attacked (as was he), but he tries to assuage his guilt about not protecting her by sometimes reimagining it as voluntary.


I think the last one the most likely. There may be others.


His name, 'Joe Buck' is quite accurate in terms of his motivations. Buck in terms of a young male looking for action, and buck in terms of his quest for the dollar. First it's greed, and later it's necessity as him and Ratso have to make ends meet. However, he's a likeable guy, and good at heart, and even through the sordid sexual escapades and even the beating of the guy at the end, he remains something of an innocent and distanced from what's going on. Only at the end, when he dumps the cowboy clothes, do you get a sense he's engaging with reality more realistically.


Finally, the relationship between Joe and Ratso. There's a lot of references and indeed acceptance in the film about homosexuality, and indeed shots and moments where you could interpret their relationship as having that subtext, but what struck me about the movie was that the relationship was more like two prepubescent boys as friends - a pair of 10 year-old boys was what they conjured up for me. They kid with each other, but they stick together and do stuff for each other. It does seem purely platonic and, again, innocent, despite the stuff they both have to do to survive and get through the cold and hungry days.


Good choice, good to watch.

[Blarg]

If we're looking at names, I'd suggest thinking of Buck in terms of stud, as in "a young buck."

SPOILER: Regarding the rape scene, her saying that he is the only one is something I took as alternatively her conscious shame over being raped/possibly pregnant, and getting out of it by pinning all the blame on Joe. Or, more likely, as her mind being basically fried by the horror of the experience, and her rejecting same by withdrawing into the lesser horror of imagining she was the partner of Joe alone. That eventually becomes the testimony, from a woman sane or mad, that sends him to prison.

Joe wants to be a hustler, but is painfully naive and out of step with the world and winds up getting hustled by everyone himself. Even his attempt to escape his tiny world, where the rape seems to show he has zero control even over what happens regarding the person he loves the most, winds up in him being part of a sort of hustle that jails him. Stay or go, he is not the big man in charge he wants to be, but the one being hustled. And he doesn't need to be a hustler and gain power and esteem to raise himself up and be somehow a step ahead of others, but just to be able to step up from the bottom and try to break even. And he can't even do that.

[diebitter]

I was wondering, with the strong thread of homosexuality that runs through this film, was it controversial in America? Were screens picketted by the vocal moral minority? I'm pretty sure it passed without much fuss in Europe.

[Blarg]

It was rated X in America.

[KOTLP]

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, the relationship between Joe and Ratso. There's a lot of references and indeed acceptance in the film about homosexuality, and indeed shots and moments where you could interpret their relationship as having that subtext, but what struck me about the movie was that the relationship was more like two prepubescent boys as friends - a pair of 10 year-old boys was what they conjured up for me. They kid with each other, but they stick together and do stuff for each other. It does seem purely platonic and, again, innocent, despite the stuff they both have to do to survive and get through the cold and hungry days.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much how I viewed their relationship as well. I haven't read it, but have heard that in the novel Ratso (another perfectly named character, btw) is gay. I didn't notice any indication of this in the film though.

[mrbaseball]

Just rewatched this last weekend and it was the first time I had seen it in many years. I had forgotten a lot of it. I thought Voight was very good and Hoffman spectacular. In mind Hoffmans best ever performance.

I enjoyed it a lot but felt it got a little bogged down in the middle. I didn't remember the flashback scenes at all and agree with Diebitter and their ambiguity. They were a bit confusing. Other than that though I felt it was very well done and most of the main points have already been covered.

This was a big deal at the time and got a lot of talk and heat and really was groundbreaking.

[katyseagull]

I wanted to say I watched it and now I'm depressed. Man, what was I thinking to nominate this film. I last saw it when I was in college and pretty much did not remember one bit of it. Yikes.

It was much more seedy and gritty than I remembered. I found the flashbacks to be really confusing. They were too quick and the black and white film was just unnecessary if you ask me. Also, during some of the flashbacks the music became bizarre and pounding, like super irritating. Tuq is right, it is a period piece and felt very dated to me.

I'm not sure what was going on in those flashbacks with his old girlfriend. I guess my take on it was Diebitter's first scenario, that she was gangbanged and then the two became lovers only to be attacked by the good ole boys later.


Agree with Dom that Dustin Hoffman and Voight are incredible together. I cannot believe this is the same guy who appeared in Straw Dogs and The Graduate. Wow. I can see where some might say that Voight laid it on a little thick with the dumb cowboy act but he is so sweet and caring towards Rizzo, (loved the scenes with him in Rizzo's ratty little apartment) and turns in a shockingly brutal scene in the old man's hotel room, that I feel it was a truly great performance. I think he should have won an award. As one reviewer wrote, Hoffman and Voight could teach a few people some lessons in acting!

Omg, you guys did not talk about that weird party scene or that horrible fall down the stairs. I was seriously weirded out by that. Halfway through the movie I started thinking that it would have been extremely helpful if I were buzzed. It was difficult for me to watch.