Time to write off public education?

[bobman0330]

As we all know, the US public school system is, by and large, a disgrace. The degree to which US high school graduates lag behind those of other countries is heavily publicized. The sources of the problems are intractable.

My question is what would happen if we just accepted that our public schools suck and moved on? At this point in time, the number of people needing exactly a quality high-school education is shrinking. With the decline of manufacturing and related jobs, more people are moving into either high-skilled jobs requiring higher education or service jobs requiring little in the way of education.

Of course, even if that's the direction we're moving in, our public schools are still poorly suited for their task. The big problem I see is that inequality in public education leads to inequality in higher education. But I think our education dollars would be better spent if we realized the overall uselessness of high school education in modern America and adapted ourselves to that reality.

[JuntMonkey]

I've thought for a while that school as we have it in the US is a huge waste. College is a 4 year vacation that makes a 40+ hour work week all the more depressing when you transition. Better off for society if we just learn what we need to learn and start earning 3 years earlier. I know you were talking about high school, but the same principles apply.

[pvn]

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I've thought for a while that school as we have it in the US is a huge waste. College is a 4 year vacation that makes a 40+ hour work week all the more depressing when you transition. Better off for society if we just learn what we need to learn and start earning 3 years earlier. I know you were talking about high school, but the same principles apply.

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Who gets to determine what's "good for society" and "what we need to learn"? Should there be a bureau of indoctrination that determines what jobs everyone will be assigned then prescribes a slate of instruction to maximize performance of that one narrow task?

Narrowly-focused people are less fundamentally useful than broad-based people.

Broad based education makes for more adaptable people.

If *you* don't like college, or think it's a waste, then don't go - nobody is forced to, last time I checked.

[mosdef]

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Narrowly-focused people are less fundamentally useful than broad-based people.

Broad based education makes for more adaptable people.

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Interesting. This is the kind of statement that one usually hears from liberal socialists who support public funding of education because it creates access to opportunities that private school only would not, and then ultimately everybody benefits from having these "more adaptable people" around.

Deep down inside you are a statist. If you wish, I can arrange some sort of ceremony under which you can be "born again" as a liberal democrat. FEEL THE POWER OF PIERRE TRUDEAU, MY BROTHER! FEEL THE TRUTH OF TOMMY DOUGLAS!

[JuntMonkey]

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I've thought for a while that school as we have it in the US is a huge waste. College is a 4 year vacation that makes a 40+ hour work week all the more depressing when you transition. Better off for society if we just learn what we need to learn and start earning 3 years earlier. I know you were talking about high school, but the same principles apply.

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Who gets to determine what's "good for society" and "what we need to learn"? Should there be a bureau of indoctrination that determines what jobs everyone will be assigned then prescribes a slate of instruction to maximize performance of that one narrow task?

Narrowly-focused people are less fundamentally useful than broad-based people.

Broad based education makes for more adaptable people.

If *you* don't like college, or think it's a waste, then don't go - nobody is forced to, last time I checked.

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I loved college, would do it again in a heartbeat, and might do more some day.

I'm not advocating the slightest bit of government involvement. I'm just saying that I think higher education evolved inefficiently (whether because of government or not). For 70%+ of kids, college is a big party. They're not interested in learning, they're just going through the motions.

I think that most of what we learn in college, for most professions, is not that relevant. You get a degree in whatever, start your first day of work, and your co-worker teaches you everything you need to learn.

I'm not saying that college can't be a very positive experience - but IMO for most people it's just a waste. It's a waste of their parents' money and a waste of their time when they could be earning.

Of course you still need to go in this day and age to get any decent job, and it's a blast even if you're not interested in learning, but as I said, I think it's inefficient.

[DVaut1]

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I loved college, would do it again in a heartbeat, and might do more some day.

I'm not advocating the slightest bit of government involvement. I'm just saying that I think higher education evolved inefficiently (whether because of government or not). For 70%+ of kids, college is a big party. They're not interested in learning, they're just going through the motions.

I think that most of what we learn in college, for most professions, is not that relevant. You get a degree in whatever, start your first day of work, and your co-worker teaches you everything you need to learn.

I'm not saying that college can't be a very positive experience - but IMO for most people it's just a waste. It's a waste of their parents' money and a waste of their time when they could be earning.

Of course you still need to go in this day and age to get any decent job, and it's a blast even if you're not interested in learning, but as I said, I think it's inefficient.

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This narrative doesn't square with the fact that many top international students go to great ends for the opportunity to attend and study at American institutions of higher education. Either they're behaving irrationally, or American higher education truly is comparatively better than the rest of the world's.

If you need some objective measures, The Economist recently wrote an article about the quality of higher-education worldwide where it claimed that the American higher-education system was a paradigm for the rest of the world to follow; the article cited a higher-education ranking formula created by the Shanghai Jiao Tong University in China. The results are dominated by American universities:

[tboss888]

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I've thought for a while that school as we have it in the US is a huge waste. College is a 4 year vacation that makes a 40+ hour work week all the more depressing when you transition. Better off for society if we just learn what we need to learn and start earning 3 years earlier. I know you were talking about high school, but the same principles apply.

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This is very dependent on what kind of school you go to and what major you choose. I spent more grueling 100 hour weeks in college than I ever have on the job.

[elwoodblues]

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As we all know, the US public school system is, by and large, a disgrace.

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I love this forum sometimes.

[ojc02]

I really think HS students should often consider a vocational program rather than regular HS. Of course the government monopoly on education would have to be removed too...

[DVaut1]

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I really think HS students should often consider a vocational program rather than regular HS. Of course the government monopoly on education would have to be removed too...

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Uh, what? At least in some states, high school students can opt out of traditional high schools and attend vocational public schools. I grew up in the suburban Boston area, and I knew a good number of my peers chose to go here instead of traditional public school ('here' = a fully state-funded, public vocational high school).

So, if the implication here is that states don't fund vocational high school options, that's patently false.

Not only that, I'm certainly that in many if not all states, students can attend private, accredited vocational schools in lieu of attending traditional high schools if they so choose, even if their state/school district doesn't fund them.

So, yeah, I'm not sure anything has to change for high school students to be able to attend vocational programs if they want.