ATo when your three bet and you flop your ace, what do you do?

sfetaz · #1 11-07-2007, 10:40 AM

I was taught by someone recently that in situations like this to c/c all the way, but I wonder if its +ev to do or if my reverse implied odds suck enough to do something different:

Read on opponent: VP$P 20, PFR 11, AF 1.91 over 400

Full Tilt 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $1.
3 folds, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

TimovieMan · #2 11-07-2007, 10:52 AM

I would probably check-raise the flop to see where I'm at. The way this is played, you have absolutely no certainty where you are in the hand. He may very well have pocket queens or pocket kings. You're likely behind, but you could very well be ahead in this hand.
Seeing how he reacts to your check-raise will at least give you something more. If he re-raises, you can safely discard your hand...

Fluffy_Shark · #3 11-07-2007, 11:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably check-raise the flop to see where I'm at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sry, but that's a bad idea...

[ QUOTE ]
Seeing how he reacts to your check-raise will at least give you something more. If he re-raises, you can safely discard your hand...

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Yes, you are right. He folds, you know he had KK or QQ, and you win one SB postflop. Just call down and find that out at showdown winning 2.5 BB. You can't be sure that you are beat when 3bet either IMO (although its very likely).

-Fluffy_Shark

Bona · #4 11-07-2007, 11:01 AM

If you put villain on a 3 betting range of JJ+, and AJ+ (it may be only AK+)you are losing here about twice for every time you win. The wuestion should be posed and answered on the flop (IMO) Looking ahead you figure to put in 2.5 BB. The times you win you win 6 BB when you lose you lose 2.5. So calling down looks good to me.

TimovieMan · #5 11-07-2007, 11:07 AM

After 400 hands you probably have a better idea of what his 3-betting range is preflop, and perhaps even an idea of his flop aggression.
If he's more likely to show his strength on the flop rather than slowplaying, you could even donk into him on the flop, I reckon.

Personally, I'd check-raise the flop, and if he calls, check-call all the way to the end, and if he raises, release my hand immediately...

And I have no idea if this is even remotely good play or not... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

shuinthehouse · #6 11-07-2007, 11:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you put villain on a 3 betting range of JJ+, and AJ+ (it may be only AK+)you are losing here about twice for every time you win. The wuestion should be posed and answered on the flop (IMO) Looking ahead you figure to put in 2.5 BB. The times you win you win 6 BB when you lose you lose 2.5. So calling down looks good to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Way too tight 3 bet range bona, i play 20/11 and if i'm button I'm 3 betting a CO open raise very liberally assuming CO is a reasonable player who will have a very wide stealing range here. I'm probably 3 betting 66+, ATo+. I'm probably c-betting this flop and turn with almost all that range. So if I'm the villain hero is definitely correct to call the flop and turn. I'm probably not betting the river with a hand worse than hero's, and I don't think villain here is either, so I think it's a fold, not sure I could fold it in hero's place though.

Bona · #7 11-07-2007, 12:54 PM

Yep. I think you are right. He's likely to try to isolate here lighter than I was thinking. I'm also thinking (after reading the other posts) bet/fold on the river is the play here because he is likely to check through a lot of hands we beat but only raise if we are way behind and since there are likely more hands we beat than I originally thought.....???

bozlax · #8 11-07-2007, 01:02 PM

So far, I've read 2 responses:

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably check-raise the flop to see where I'm at.

[/ QUOTE ]

As Kit said a couple of days ago, please stop doing this. It's terrible. The information is unreliable, and you're probably not going to use it anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
If you put villain on a 3 betting range of JJ+, and AJ+ (it may be only AK+)you are losing here about twice for every time you win.

[/ QUOTE ]

o rly?

AA: 1
KK: 6
QQ: 6
JJ: 3
AK: 4
AQ: 4
AJ: 9

You're a 6:5 underdog to that range.

Hmmm, let's see, you're about 50/50; you're HU; and whichever player is behind has about 2 outs to a winner. I'm trying to remember...there's a name for this...hmmmm, what is it again?

Hero should have bet the river. Other than that, the hand is perfect.

stm

Bona · #9 11-07-2007, 01:19 PM

Poker stove showed me about 65/35 underdog sir. FWIW we don't disagree on how to play the hand.

Aaron W. · #10 11-07-2007, 01:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Poker stove showed me about 65/35 underdog sir. FWIW we don't disagree on how to play the hand.

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Pokerstove is a more accurate calculation because it includes drawing/chopping possibilities for the player who is behind. Boz's calculation is a hand-counting that only cares about who is ahead/behind at the moment.