What games are bots unable to beat?

Jeter5583 · #1 06-09-2007, 01:04 AM

I have heard that no bot has been created to win against good players at SH no limit. Is it just limit where bots can win? And it is still only against weak players that bots have an edge? Anyone actually have a concrete idea about this because it sure seems like a lot of speculation and accusations and I still have the attitude that no bot is good at NL. Where do bots have proven success and failure? Is there proof for anything?

DMoogle · #2 06-09-2007, 01:38 AM

IMHO:

From easiest to hardest to program for hold 'em:
STTs
MTTs
Limit cash games
No Limit cash games (excluding short stacking push-bots, which would be as easy as STTs)

Also from easiest to hardest:
Full-ring
Heads-up
Short-handed

PokerBob · #3 06-09-2007, 01:46 AM

huhu vs. me they have no shot.

Victor · #4 06-09-2007, 02:19 AM

hu is far easier than multiway.

React1oN · #5 06-09-2007, 02:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
hu is far easier than multiway.

[/ QUOTE ]

DMoogle · #6 06-09-2007, 02:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hu is far easier than multiway.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmm... I guess it should be more like this:
Limit (Heads-up, Full-ring, Short-handed)
No Limit (Full-ring, Heads-up, Short-handed)

Better?

bap2086 · #7 06-09-2007, 03:59 AM

no limit headsup would be really hard vs a thinking player.

RIIT · #8 06-09-2007, 07:48 PM

Well for starters, any game not implemented on a computer is going to be a challenge (if not impossible) for a robot. But I'm sure you meant computer games. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

For the non-gambling category, the chinese game of GO comes to mind - also rock, paper, scissors.

For the gambling category, most games are statistically finite with complete information and the house has the edge so the games are unbeatable to begin with - bot or no bot.

For the poker category, the games are statistically finite but the information is incomplete. No bot could beat a poker game where all of the opponents were clones of itself.

I'd say that a bot could not beat any poker game that a human could not be beat (I say this based on the assumption that bots are built by humans). If the previous statement is true then it's a violation of logic to claim that if a human can beat a certain poker game then a bot can too.

I'm willing to say that there is no type of poker that a bot can beat but a human cannot. I think in all cases of poker, the strongest human players are equal or stronger than the strongest bots.

Victor · #9 06-09-2007, 08:04 PM

"I'd say that a bot could not beat any poker game that a human could not be beat (I say this based on the assumption that bots are built by humans)."

this is off. bots can do plenty of things better and faster than humans, mainly counting. in poker terms, bots can do ev calcs and simulations. bots can remember how certain players act in certain situations.

think about in lhe on the river when facing a river bet with a marginal hand where you only beat a bluff. you are getting 5:1 and you know your opponent is capable of bluffing sometimes but you arent sure how often. further, you arent even sure if your opponent can have a hand that needs to bluff the river, ie, did he really call hte turn with a gutshot?

a good player can use his memory and instincts to make good guess against most opponents and may even be certain against some opponents. but if a bot can use several thousand hands to evaluate the opponent it can make a better guess on all opponents.

lotus guardian · #10 06-09-2007, 09:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well for starters, any game not implemented on a computer is going to be a challenge (if not impossible) for a robot. But I'm sure you meant computer games. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

For the non-gambling category, the chinese game of GO comes to mind - also rock, paper, scissors.

For the gambling category, most games are statistically finite with complete information and the house has the edge so the games are unbeatable to begin with - bot or no bot.

For the poker category, the games are statistically finite but the information is incomplete. No bot could beat a poker game where all of the opponents were clones of itself.

I'd say that a bot could not beat any poker game that a human could not be beat (I say this based on the assumption that bots are built by humans). If the previous statement is true then it's a violation of logic to claim that if a human can beat a certain poker game then a bot can too.

I'm willing to say that there is no type of poker that a bot can beat but a human cannot. I think in all cases of poker, the strongest human players are equal or stronger than the strongest bots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bots will definitely be able to beat humans at any game in the future, there is no doubt about that. The human brain is just a very very complex web of electric circuits. You just need to copy those circuits on a processor and a bot will think exactly like a human being.