Preflop Poll

[veganmav]

QJoffsuit UTG in 6 handed, with average lineup.

A9offsuit UTG in 6 handed with average lineup.

[The Bryce]

I think I can see what you're getting at here. This might surprise you:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,746,550,080 games 2.406 secs 725,914,413 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 31.9427 % 30.32% 01.62% { A9o }
Hand 2: 68.0573 % 66.43% 01.62% { 99+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }


---

1,767,097,728 games 2.656 secs 665,322,939 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 29.1535 % 28.61% 00.54% { QJo }
Hand 2: 70.8465 % 70.30% 00.54% { 99+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }


---

Given that we have position and showdown value against the blinds with A9 it's a much more powerful hand than QJ.

[veganmav]

I think raising both of these is -EV.

Does anyone want to disagree?

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
I think raising both of these is -EV.

Does anyone want to disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]

i fold both here myself.

[mcvalenc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think raising both of these is -EV.

Does anyone want to disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]

i fold both here myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

[The Bryce]

I tried to ask my database if I was a lifetime winner raising A9o 3 OTB (I mostly have) and it crashed. I'll try again later when I'm not running anything else.

[Hoi Polloi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think raising both of these is -EV.

Does anyone want to disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]

i fold both here myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know there's a better hand coming up any second now.

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
I think raising both of these is -EV.

Does anyone want to disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, I'll disagree. If the game is sufficiently soft, I think these hands are playable. If the line up is average (say one fairly soft spot, one other tight but poor postflop player and three other good players), then fold sounds right.

[Trix]

I dont get your point

[The Bryce]

He's saying that hands that only show a very slight edge in immediate value should be sacrificed so that you're able to find more value bluffing / semi-bluffing (which would supposedly show a larger overall gain). This is the 24/18s battle cry, whereas the 35/25 "thinks" that even hands with an even to slightly negative expectation still allow you to interact with your opponents more and therefore allow you to have more metagame control and adding value to the rest of your hands. Obviously what hands you raise UTG isn't going to have much of an impact on any of this, it's mostly a stealing and defending thing where the contrast between hands is small. The belief that a tighter player has more folding equity than a looser one in a large player pool like Party Poker, though, is mostly ficitious. How loose you play should just usually depend on your opponents, yourself, and your immediate expectation with the hand.