If Raptor can do it I can to - Metagame and Balancing the Open Limp

Inyaface · #1 11-23-2006, 04:49 AM

Disclaimer: This hand is a bit bizarre and at no point am I claiming I played it the best way but I think there's some merit in examining the hand.

So we all know the open limp is the new steal raise. In sng's people are often multitabling and don't pay attention to you open limping or are just weak passive and won't play back at the limp.

Now take an MTT. People are often one tabling and paying more attention to every hand played especially as you approach the bubble or ITM where those "big bucks" kick in. While most bad/mediocre players don't pay attention to how your actually playing often they will arbitrarilly peg you on a style rightfully or wrongfully (Simple 2nd level thinking....how in general is my opponent playing). If you've opened a few pots they automatically think lag while if you've folded a bunch they put you on a tighter style without considering chip position any other reasons why you might be raising or folding. I think something people often leave out of their games in SNG's and MTT's is using metagame and images they have crafted for themselves and applying it to how bad/mediocre players will play back at you (Simple 3rd level...what does he think I have).

This hand below looks really bizarre first and might even be bad. When I sent it to Raptor he basically said “you suck, push the raise button” and while it might be a donkified hand I still think the general idea of limping in thise spot MIGHT be more negative ev then rasing but it's still cool.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t3000 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero (t25820)
SB (t73557)
BB (t43642)
UTG (t52508)
MP1 (t46008)
MP2 (t48680)
CO (t76242)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls t3000
WHAT! OPEN LIMP ON THE BUTTON! BUT YOU HAVE THE QUEEN ANNNNDDD THE QUEEN.

Now in multis lately I've been getting owned by opening to light to often and getting re-raised so in this donkament I decided to play around with limping a huge range from late position. It was a fairly passive table and my limps had been raised over very few times. In the previous postflop hands I had yet to go to showdown but due to some good bluffs and hitting some hands I had won a bunch of smaller pots. Now I’m assuming my image is limp a lot bet any flop (which is basically what I’ve been doing)

In this spot it was really simple, get all the money in the best way possible. Now I can tell that I'm going to get played back at soon because I've been open limping tons and as much as people don't like to raise the open limper I have a perfect stack and image to be shoved over. Also both blinds play pretty OK for a 22 rebuy and are both laggy. The SB doubled up shoving Ax and sucking out on AK and the BB had increased his stack without showdown by shoving a 10 bb stack in a few good spots.

Now my image is limp donkey with huge range but I've also been limping and folding to shoves or raises a few times. Now if I had been open raising a lot and playing laggy I just open and pray for a shove. In this spot though I think it's best to stick with my donkified image and limp the button. Now by limping my seeming hand range is low to mid suited connecters, low pairs, Ace rag mediocre kings and queens, j10 etc. Basically hands that I almost never call a shove with. On the other hand my opening range (for villains if they took my image into account) would be much tighter as I've yet to steal raise a lot.Obviously this is almost never the case. In this spot with my stack and image I'm think I'm getting a bigger range shoved over then if I were to open raise since I look like a weakish preflop nitty donk that likes to bet postflop.

Ok so I limp and SB completes and BB checks or SB folds and BB checks. Oops they were supposed to shove sigh...Flop 279 they check I bet. My hand is so well disguised here and my image dictates a huge range that will bet any flop. In this case there going to be bet calling or check shoving with any top pair hand or even mid/bottom pairs. If I’m in the BB vs me here and I have any 7, 9 or draw I check push all day because I should be ahead of the button range.

Ok disadvantages... I often get no value but hands that are going to shove or call a raise would have probably done that preflop. One thing I don't get is hand protection if I fail to get a raise PF. Someone outflops me...GG peace...busto. I also fail to get a reshove from someone that reads my button raise as a steal but will take a flop against my limp...this is probably the biggest issue. Also even though I read my opponents as not bad I might be giving them to much credit to bluff (junk shove) or semibluff (medicore hand shove) over my limp. HOWEVER a big leak for donkey's in MTT's and SNG's is often pushing to big a range in bad spots so maybe the worse lag's they are the better which I feel might apply to my 2 pretties in the blinds.

In conclusion Meh I play like a donkey but run good so I make money sometimes. If you think this hand sucks go ahead and tell me why. Like I said I still don't even know if I like it. If you think it's good you probably suck as bad or worse then me...Flame Away

Edit: There's also great Meta game value if the hand gets showndown in being able to open limp tons more.

costanza_g · #2 11-23-2006, 05:07 AM

If I do this and an Ace or King flops....I want to crawl into a corner and cry.

I guess it could work in MTTs, but i cant see this being the best option in sngs.

Inyaface · #3 11-23-2006, 05:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If I do this and an Ace or King flops....I want to crawl into a corner and cry.

I guess it could work in MTTs, but i cant see this being the best option in sngs.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think an important part of this play is alot of aces and some kings are going to shove overtop preflop

darom03 · #4 11-23-2006, 07:01 AM

Limping QQ on the button, whith less than ten BB, is simply stupid. Hands they will raise you with are also hands they will call with, so just shove 'em in and hope you win the pot.

I do, however, see some merit in limping KK or AA if you are absolutely sure they will fold to a raise.

futuredoc85 · #5 11-23-2006, 08:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Limping QQ on the button, whith less than ten BB, is simply stupid. Hands they will raise you with are also hands they will call with, so just shove 'em in and hope you win the pot.

I do, however, see some merit in limping KK or AA if you are absolutely sure they will fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

this just isnt true, maybe if you're talking about 2p2ers, but even then some lower PPs will shove where they wouldnt have called. as far as regular donks go and even semi-decent regs, they love to shove loose over limpers, esp if the limper has been limping fairly often.

darom03 · #6 11-23-2006, 08:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Limping QQ on the button, whith less than ten BB, is simply stupid. Hands they will raise you with are also hands they will call with, so just shove 'em in and hope you win the pot.

I do, however, see some merit in limping KK or AA if you are absolutely sure they will fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

this just isnt true, maybe if you're talking about 2p2ers, but even then some lower PPs will shove where they wouldnt have called. as far as regular donks go and even semi-decent regs, they love to shove loose over limpers, esp if the limper has been limping fairly often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you fail to see the whole picture here Future. Limping with queens at this stage in a MTT is asking for trouble. You talk about the possibility of a shove, but what about the possibility of two limps.

Then where do you stand with your short stack when an ace or king hits (and it will 42% of the time). So i repeat: This is a very bad time in a MTT to get "cute" and try to "outplay" your opponents.

Evenkeal · #7 11-23-2006, 09:30 AM

preflop limp is expert

ps. your not raptor. holla

pss. im not gigabet.

Eagles · #8 11-23-2006, 12:19 PM

Good post,
It's important to note that depending on how aggro your table is this can be very good or very bad. (By table I mean the two players in the blinds). Another important point is you will not lose the pot anytime an ace or king flops.

Pudge714 · #9 11-23-2006, 12:59 PM

Two reason this play works.
1. You have reads. You aren't just arbitrarily assuming that people are going to shove into you.
2. You are at a point in the MTT where you don't want to waste a hand like QQ you want to double up. Stealing the blinds here you are wasting a very good hand deep in an mtt. In SNG's this play is horrible because
A) You will be pushing a lot for the rest of the SNG
B) The chips in the middle are really important in adding to your stack.

The other thing is guys in MTT's won't be calling this push with A2 or stuff like that. Guy in MTT's play so tight with like 20-25 bb's. There are tons of spots in MTT's where raising any two is +EV.

I also feel like this is much better if you have like 40k

Inyaface · #10 11-23-2006, 01:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I also feel like this is much better if you have like 40k

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? I like it less. I feel that 40k represents more of the sb's stack and all of the bb's stack and there is less of a chance of them shoving preflop. Now a 40k stack would work better for a limp raise which totally looks like a steal but I'm still not sure if I like it more. Also a 40k stack still has some playability beyond push fold whille a 25k stack doesn't (unless your an FPS donk like me)