I make a lot of questionable decisions

[private joker]

What else is new?

Commerce 20. Everybody is loose, everybody is fairly passive, everybody is bad, but nobody is completely retarded.

I'm under the gun and because I've raised 3 of the last 4 hands and because it's a loose passive table where a lot of pots are multiway for 1 bet and because I don't feel like folding or raising, I decide to do the rare open limp, and I do it with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Anyway shut up about preflop; it's close and it doesn't matter and it's the least interesting of many decisions in the hand.

So everyone else limps too, and we take the flop 7 ways for one bet.

Flop comes J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Blinds check, I bet, EP calls, MP raises, button cold-calls, others fold, I call, EP calls.

Turn is 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I bet, EP calls, MP calls, button calls.

River is 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check, EP checks, MP checks, button bets, I raise...

All the bolded decisions could have been done differently. Was I 0/4? 1/4?

[SNOWBALL]

PJ,

I like the way you wrote this up.

I like the flop call. Your position isn't very good, and your hand isn't very big. Also, the pot isn't big enough to just WAR over it IMO. Furthermore, a fair amount of people are saying they like their hand, especially the raiser. The turn card will drastically affect your equity. I like keeping the pot small so we can confidently CF gross turns or lead good ones depending on the action and what comes off

Turn bet: Ok, this is a great card for us. We need to lead here, because our hand is often best, and if it isn't, then we have an overlay with the likely callers in between.

River: lead here PLEASE.
Once button bets though, I think you should call. You have a nice chance for an overcall behind you, and button might not call your CR.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


River: lead here PLEASE.
Once button bets though, I think you should call. You have a nice chance for an overcall behind you, and button might not call your CR.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be right about leading, but think about this some more. Given their flop and turn play, don't their hands look a lot like missed draws? T8, QT, and diamond-draws make up a HUGE part of their range in my opinion. But maybe one of the 3 of them has a made hand and my best bet is the flop raiser -- MP. So if I check to him I might get a call from button and how can he fold to a checkraise in such a big pot? So I checked. Oops, nobody bet until the button.

Now that that happened, time to reevaluate. EP and MP both had a chance to bet when I "gave up" on the river. They didn't like their hand enough to do so. I think it's more likely that button now has a made hand and the others have the QT/T8/diamonds range, so I'd rather get a call from button than see the other 2 fold anyway.

At least that was my thinking. My flush is really really well hidden. And these opponents are too passive to raise 2 pair (or worse) on this river so I'm never getting the chance to 3-bet here if I lead. At best I think I get 1BB from someone along with 2 folds from the missed draws. Checkraising should get me 2BBs at least, if not one more from a caller between me and the bettor.

But since I was so unsure about this and playing it fairly fast (I didn't sit there and tank on every decision to go through these thoughts), I could very well have played this real bad.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
At best I think I get 1BB from someone along with 2 folds from the missed draws. Checkraising should get me 2BBs at least, if not one more from a caller between me and the bettor.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it the other way around. A leading bet looks normal, nobody will suspect you have the flush and you will get calls with top pair or better (and if your lucky you will get raised).

As played raising will net you only an extra bet usually because you just turned your hand over for the monster that it is, not sure why you expect 2 BB here (did you mean the button bet and a call?). Although its not as good as betting the river, I wonder if as played if your better off just calling rather than raising, it might be more profitable.

[mongidig]

I still think you should lead the river here. You described your opponents as loose so they certainly could be in there with draws and may just fold to your river bet, however, you also described them as passive which means they may have made hands and are just calling down and hoping they have a winner, but may not bet the river. If you are lucky someone may have rivered a big hand and raise you since they certainly won't put you on a flush. There is no gaurantee that someone will bet the river nor is there a gaurantee were that bet will come from. I believe that absent any great reads betting out here will make you more money in the long run.

The rest of the hand was played well.

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
PJ,

I like the way you wrote this up.

I like the flop call. Your position isn't very good, and your hand isn't very big. Also, the pot isn't big enough to just WAR over it IMO. Furthermore, a fair amount of people are saying they like their hand, especially the raiser. The turn card will drastically affect your equity. I like keeping the pot small so we can confidently CF gross turns or lead good ones depending on the action and what comes off

Turn bet: Ok, this is a great card for us. We need to lead here, because our hand is often best, and if it isn't, then we have an overlay with the likely callers in between.

River: lead here PLEASE.
Once button bets though, I think you should call. You have a nice chance for an overcall behind you, and button might not call your CR.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also like leading the river. I think you will collect two bets almost as often, by getting two callers rather than raising and getting an extra bet out of one guy. Plus you avoid it going check, check, check behind you.

Of course, I've all but given up going for river check raises, convinced that I miss more bets than I gain.

I don't know why PJ questions his turn bet. Top pair, with a flush draw?

[PokerBob]

imo everything is fine but the river. bet that [censored].

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]

imo everything is fine but the river. bet that [censored].


[/ QUOTE ]

what about the CR? I think going for overcalls has better value

[cgrohman]

I agree. It's nice that the c/r worked but I wouldn;t expect it to that even even with 3 opponents still in the hand especially given that you describned the game as passive.

[andyfox]

Against fairly passive and bad, I prefer to hit them over the head with a hammer, than to try to confuse them when they won't really be thinking all that much anyway. You didn't 3-bet the flop but then bet out on the turn when, if you were behind on the flop, you were still behind on the turn. While EP and MP's most likely hands are draws, who knows with these passive guys, I'd bet out on the river looking for as many calls as possible.