NL50: K3o 4 handed

[Scuba Chuck]

Tribeca hand. Tables break pretty fast there, so there's no telling how I got in this spot to begin with.

UTG:51.49
Hero: 56.06
SB: 22.89
BB: 10.39

Hero dealt: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Utg folds, hero raises to $2.50, SB raises to $4.50, BB calls, hero calls.

While implied odds aren't that great with the shallow blind stacks, I'm getting an immediate 5.75:1 to call. Standard, no?

Flop: ($13.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB bets $18.64 (allin), BB folds, hero calls.

My thoughts before calling.
1) Villain overbet the pot - seems kinda scared, although there is the FD
2) I have top pair, but kicker is clearly no good.
3) The board is paired, so if villain has a hand like KT, I might have 12 outs to a split.
4) Villain looks like he doesn't want to get called.

Thoughts on all streets?

[marvin_1935]

pf raise on button: not good (ok if its suited)
calling a reraise: not good
calling flop ai: not good

why was your initial raise so large?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
pf raise on button: not good (ok if its suited)
calling a reraise: not good
calling flop ai: not good

why was your initial raise so large?

[/ QUOTE ]

In hindsight, the only thing about this hand I definately don't like is my preflop. I don't mind the K3o raise 4 handed. In retrospect, I should have done a better job in stack recognition. I rarely have this problem, I blame it on being new at the site. For this reason preflop never should have been raised. Regarding the large pfr, I am new to the site, and still getting used to the software. $2.50 pops up automatically with the slidey bar, I now type in my bet size.


How is calling the 3bet after the call "not good?" ~6:1 pot odds plus implied odds, this has to be correct? Furthermore, the hand range for this kind of play is much wider than 3-5 hands. Anyhow, I'd settle for "marginal."

I don't know if calling the flop ai is good or not because I'm having a hard time with the range size, and how much of a made hand villain needs to shove here. For example is 22 shoving here? Is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] shoving here? Again, the overbet and the paired board were the reasons that swayed me to make the call. I certainly see hands like AA/TT/JJ/QQ/88/77/AK/AdQd/AdJd making this same kind of bet and KK likely cr's. My card equity is 53% against that range (excluding KK), getting 1.75:1 in pot equity.

[ QUOTE ]

Board: Kd 9d 9s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.427% 49.30% 04.12% 254790 21309.00 { K3o }
Hand 1: 46.573% 42.45% 04.12% 219372 21309.00 { AA, QQ-TT, 88-77, AKs, AdQd, AdJd, KTs+, AKo, KQo }

[/ QUOTE ]

[marvin_1935]

i said "not good" cause i felt bad saying "bad" now i'll just say: raising k3o 4 handed is bad

calling his reraise is bad. you're not ahead, you're dominated and you're rarely even a coinflip. a k99 flop is pretty much one of the best flops you could hope to see, but more often you're gonna totally whiff the flop and have a clear fold when he bets.

calling his overbet: now that you're in this [censored] up situation you might as well call i guess. you should be ahead often enough to make it marginal.

[lacrymosa]

I can think of 3 places where I'd fold this hand

[wiggs73]

Scuba,

I don't like / understand the 5xBB initial raise. For that matter I don't like raising K3o to begin with, I'd just fold.

SB re-raises pre, I don't like the call here... even though you are getting ok odds, K3o just isn't good enough to continue with imo.

I guess given how you got to the flop, I'm fine w/ calling there. I generally don't give short stacks much credit and in my experience they make moves like this with all sort of junk so if I somehow misclicked a few times and got to this flop I'd call his push.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Scuba,

I don't like / understand the 5xBB initial raise. For that matter I don't like raising K3o to begin with, I'd just fold.

SB re-raises pre, I don't like the call here... even though you are getting ok odds, K3o just isn't good enough to continue with imo.

I guess given how you got to the flop, I'm fine w/ calling there. I generally don't give short stacks much credit and in my experience they make moves like this with all sort of junk so if I somehow misclicked a few times and got to this flop I'd call his push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh. You're like Abe Lincoln. Pretty much what I said in fewer words.

[maccamack]

Shesh - you should never have called the re-raise pre flop. Fine making a play with crap cards, but when you get re-raised you gotta drop em.

On the flop though I call like you did.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Shesh - you should never have called the re-raise pre flop. Fine making a play with crap cards, but when you get re-raised you gotta drop em.

On the flop though I call like you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a vacuum, I agree with "when you get reraised you gotta drop em." But getting reraised for just $2, an overcall, and getting ~6:1 odds is different. Thus the reason with the post.

Again, I think the progression per bet is:

Open preflop: Bad
Preflop call: Marginal
Flop Call: Fine

Why is there no discussion on hand ranges with anybody here?

[Warteen]

Sounds like you don't want to hear the truth: It's a bad idea to play K3o (it's not even a good blind-stealing hand, because it's very subject to domination by hands that will call or raise). Calling the reraise was also questionable, because you are almost definitely behind (and if he has a king, way behind).
On the flop, you have to win more than 1/3rd of the time for it to be a correct call. An overpush there from the halfstack might mean a mid pocket pair, yes, but it's just as likely (perhaps more so) that it represents a K or a 9. If it's a king, you're drawing for a split, and if it's a 9, you're dead to 2 outs. If he has a diamond draw, it's a race. Looking at all that info, I guess a call on the flop is not terrible, but you're definitely gambling without a good read. Villain showing strength preflop and pushing this flop after you called indicates (to me) that you're beat. As it was said, I'm folding in 3 spots on this hand.