Inducing river bluffs

[vmacosta]

Sick of giving advice when i mostly suck at holdem so let me see what i can squeeze out of yall:

I used to think the whole inducing river bluffs thing was something weak/tight live nits used cuz they were afraid of getting bluff-raised.

However, recently I've changed my mind when it comes to playing certain fish and now I'm wondering what else i might be missing. Can people produce hands where they think this concept was applied correctly? Incorrectly?

To be clear, I am talking about situations where you are oop and have initiative on the river but choose to c/c.

[kimchi]

Not sure if this is correct/incorrect play but yesterday on $2/4:

Folded to laggy SB raises, I re-raise QQ from BB
flop: A93 check-bet-call
turn: A93-9 check-check
river A93-9-T bet-call

Don't know if this was correct, but I'd rather villain thought I had nothing than attempt a c/raise on the turn which (against this LAG) I'd probably have to call down.

If I bet that turn, I'd be raised by hands I'm behind and probably fold out hands I'm ahead. I chose to try to get him to bluff the river so I can gain an extra bet (or bet his better hand so I lose less when behind).

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure if this is correct/incorrect play but yesterday on $2/4:

Folded to laggy SB raises, I re-raise QQ from BB
flop: A93 check-bet-call
turn: A93-9 check-check
river A93-9-T bet-call

Don't know if this was correct, but I'd rather villain thought I had nothing than attempt a c/raise on the turn which (against this LAG) I'd probably have to call down.

If I bet that turn, I'd be raised by hands I'm behind and probably fold out hands I'm ahead. I chose to try to get him to bluff the river so I can gain an extra bet (or bet his better hand so I lose less when behind).

[/ QUOTE ]

kimchi,
shoot. i didn't make it clear in my OP. This is not what I meant. I mean you have initiative on river but choose to give it up to induce a bluff. lemme see if I can ammend my OP.

[gregorio]

vs. aggressive opponent who isn't likely to call down with a mediocre made hand, if you have been betting a hand like TP on F & T, and they have been calling on a draw heavy board, and no draw gets there on the river, then they probably won't pay off another bet on the river if their draw missed and you bet out, but they might bet the river as a bluff if you check.

Preflop (Hero has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
villian open raises from C/O; hero in SB 3-bets

Flop (K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls (or Hero bets, villain raises, Hero 3-bets, villain calls)

Turn (3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls

River (4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

vs passive calling station who maybe is calling down with KT or A8, value bet this.

vs someone you think is on a draw and unlikely just calling with a made hand and not going to call another bet, checking to induce a bluff is good

[milesdyson]

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, Button calls, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6SB, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3BB, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 7BB
<font color="#ffffff">Button Shows Jc 8s</font>
<font color="#ffffff">Hero Shows 10d Kh</font>

i c/c because his range is pretty much straight draws and flush draws on the turn and my hand is not well defined.

[vmacosta]

miles,
this is exactly the kind of hand I've been noticing works well. I take it that this button-limper is hi vpip, low af?

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
vs. aggressive opponent who isn't likely to call down with a mediocre made hand, if you have been betting a hand like TP on F &amp; T, and they have been calling on a draw heavy board, and no draw gets there on the river, then they probably won't pay off another bet on the river if their draw missed and you bet out, but they might bet the river as a bluff if you check.

Preflop (Hero has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
villian open raises from C/O; hero in SB 3-bets

Flop (K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls (or Hero bets, villain raises, Hero 3-bets, villain calls)

Turn (3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls

River (4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

vs passive calling station who maybe is calling down with KT or A8, value bet this.

vs someone you think is on a draw and unlikely just calling with a made hand and not going to call another bet, checking to induce a bluff is good

[/ QUOTE ]

gregorio,
thank you, this is not a spot I've ever considered...maybe others can help us decide if this is +ev. btw, i think you can raise the river if he bets.

[MacGuyV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
vs. aggressive opponent who isn't likely to call down with a mediocre made hand, if you have been betting a hand like TP on F &amp; T, and they have been calling on a draw heavy board, and no draw gets there on the river, then they probably won't pay off another bet on the river if their draw missed and you bet out, but they might bet the river as a bluff if you check.

Preflop (Hero has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
villian open raises from C/O; hero in SB 3-bets

Flop (K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls (or Hero bets, villain raises, Hero 3-bets, villain calls)

Turn (3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls

River (4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

vs passive calling station who maybe is calling down with KT or A8, value bet this.

vs someone you think is on a draw and unlikely just calling with a made hand and not going to call another bet, checking to induce a bluff is good

[/ QUOTE ]

gregorio,
thank you, this is not a spot I've ever considered...maybe others can help us decide if this is +ev. btw, i think you can raise the river if he bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he has a pair too often to check there. Even if he doesn't, it's a pretty crazy bluff after we 3bang the flop; does anyone ever c/f here? I think even most Lagtards realize that nobody does. I'd def. raise if he bets though.

[vmacosta]

All,
What about the following:
you open qh9h in the sb and a 35/15/1 calls in the BB. You've haven't played many hands together but you suspect he sucks and doesn't yet know you are 43 wtsd.
the flop comes something like T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
you bet, he calls
turn is an 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
you bet, he calls
river is K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

fwiw, I might bet my whole range there if I were villain and somehow made it to the river in this manner.

[MacGuyV]

Yah I think c/c is standard there.